500 Mondial Spyder Series II Scaglietti #0512MD | FerrariChat

500 Mondial Spyder Series II Scaglietti #0512MD

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Michael Muller, Jul 3, 2010.

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  1. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    #1 Michael Muller, Jul 3, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The "barchetta" log:
    http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0512MD.500Mondial.htm

    Was at the Schlumpf collection at Mulhouse last Sunday, and don't know what this really is. The inventory done after the end of the Schlumpf ownership end of the 70's says "500/625 0512MD engine 0512MD 4 cyl Fischer".

    Comments/questions:

    (1) For sure this car has nothing to do with Fischer who stopped racing in 1953. So what is the real history?
    (2) F2? There was no F2 in 1955, and from 1957 onwards it was 1.5 litre.
    (3) 625? Was this car really enlarged to 2.5 litres, and did it ever raced in F1?
    (4) The car clearly has an oldfashioned swing axle, identical to the 2 Espadon cars (Rudi Fischer / Peter Staechelin) which both date back to 1949. The 500 Mondial had a deDion rear end.

    My first bet was that this is one of the 1949 cars which disappeared during the 1st half of the 50's, but there's none "open" in my list.

    So, what is it, and what is the real history?
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  2. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn F1 Rookie
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    #2 Boudewijn, Jul 3, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    According to the Museum Fischer used this car in 1952 to finish third in the Swiss Grand Prix, but photographic evidence shows Fisher in quite a different car, unless it had major surgery after 1952. The engine is 0512MD, coming from the 1955 crashed Mondial of Della Favera, so this engine was brought in after 1955. This is a photo of the Mondial at Agadir 1955.
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  3. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    The Fischer car was the tipo 500 #0184, in fact he was 2nd and not 3rd at the Swiss GP in 1952. Interesting enough that also this car is displayed at Mulhouse. Clearly visible the DeDion suspension v/s the swing axle of the mystery car.

    [​IMG]

    The documentation of the Mulhouse exhibits imho is a mess. There are a lot of rough mistakes on the display boards, even when it comes to Bugattis for which the museum is famous. When the Schlumpf textile empire went bankrupt in 1977, the brothers fled to Switzerland, and the car collection was unearthed by the upset workers. In the 2 years to follow an inventory was done which included countless mistakes and wrong information. Much of this is carried forward until today.

    So I sincerely doubt that the monoposto in question is based on 0512MD. The corresponding data at "barchetta" ("rebodied as a Formula 2 single seater") probably is based on the Mulhouse statement. My believe is that only engine #0512MD" is used for this car, which was left over from the destroyed Favera Mondial. Or, if the information about the engine change in May 1955 is correct, it may have been rebuilt by the factory and enlarged to 2.5 litres.

    I really wonder why nobody up to now realized the car's swing axle. The latest Ferrari monoposti with such suspension were built in 1949, after that DeDion was standard. And also the Mondial had a deDion rear end.

    Below 2 photos for comparison. First the mystery car, and then Fischer's tipo 212/166 #0110.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Except the more modern nose of the mystery car they are nearly identical, even the cut-out for a V12 exhaust is there! Therefore I am convinced that this is one of the very early singleseaters from 1948/49 which as late as 1955 was upgraded to actual F1 by using enlarged engine #0512MD.
     
  4. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn F1 Rookie
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    #4 Boudewijn, Jul 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    There's no doubt the chassis of 0512MD was not reusable after this horrible crash (copyright Archivio Automobile Club di Parma).
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  5. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Horrible photo, but it confirms my believe.

    By the way, my limit for posting images is full, therefore I only can use external links.
     
  6. ERault

    ERault Karting

    Aug 8, 2007
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    Very convincing case, gentlemen. If someone took the trouble to put a 4 cylinder Mondial engine, brought to 2.5 liter, in an old ex-V12 monoposto, it would have been to race it. Can we find such a car in the 1955 or 1956 season ? I first thought of Berardo Taraschi, but his car still have its V12 engine, at least at Napoli on may 1955 (photo in Altorio's Taraschi book, page 133). It also had bulbous flanks, probably for additional fuel tanks.
    The car could be a hillclimber, but it seems by this time all the major players used sportsracing cars.
     
  7. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    The Taraschi car was not only a V12, but also the (newer) F2/50 model with deDion rear axle.
     
  8. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    The remark "Fischer" in the museum's files may lead to the conclusion that the car came together with the other Ecurie Espadon cars:
    - tipo 212/166 #0110 (ex-1951-Fischer, ex-1951-Hirt)
    - tipo 125/166 #0104 (ex-1951-Staechelin), 166 engine #001F, 125 engine #12C (displayed separately)
    - tipo 500 #0184 (ex-1952-Fischer, ex-1953-Schoeller)
    So possibly a Swiss background.
     
  9. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn F1 Rookie
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    In the Cavallino no61 article of 1991 Robert Phillips makes a remark concerning 0512MD regarding the inspection of Antoine Prunet of this car at the museum this to be a later factory restored 375 F1 Chassis.
     
  10. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

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    The tipo 375 F1 had a DeDion axle....
     
  11. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2002
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    I directed my father to this thread; his response is as follows:


    "My old notes from the late eighties reflect that Prunet validated only that the serial of the motor was 0512. My notes make no mention of the exact car type in which the motor was installed, and I have nothing which substantiates my writing twenty years ago that it was a 375. I am not at all familiar with the various Formula bodies used by Ferrari in the late forties and early fifties. There is a note which indicated that this car was rebuilt (whatever that means) by one Franz Eckhart in the late fifties. It is possible that it is a conversion from a DeDion capable chassis to a live axle chassis but that would entail considerable work replacing a transaxle and also chassis mods. On the other hand, if the car is not a working car, then there may be no transmission at all and a live axle would be an easy replacement with a few simple chassis mods. No clear answer until someone gets to inspect the car more closely for transmission location and to look for chassis serial identification."
     
  12. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

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    It would be very unlikely that somebody changes a DeDion against a swing axle, not if the car is intended to race, and surely not if only for non-functional exhibition purpose. I also understand that the history of all 375's is well known and documented.

    The nose of the car has a 1954 onwards layout, so it is very likely that the bodywork facelifting happened at the same time as the engine conversion, thus after mid 1955 (new engine in 0512MD in May 1955, scrapping in June 1955).

    What about #0210, the Scarlatti car? My knowledge about the later 4-cylinder cars is limited, was this really a full tipo 500/625? The log at "barchetta" looks strange:
    http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0210F.F2.htm
    Why using a brand new and highly competive tipo 500 as display car only? The racing career of #0210 only started in 1955 (I doubt the one-off with Mancini at Rome 1954). However, if #0210 really ended up in South America it cannot be our mystery car, but the "barchetta" data may be unproven or even speculation. Any photo showing Scarlatti with this car would be highly welcome, especially if the rear axle layout can be seen.
     
  13. ERault

    ERault Karting

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  14. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

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    #14 Michael Muller, Jul 5, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2010
    Thanks, clearly a DeDion car. So that option we can scrap.
     
  15. ERault

    ERault Karting

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    Hum... The easy way (spotting the cars racing in 1955/56 and checking them against our mystery car) has not done much. What if we try the hard way, that is following the lives of each swing-axle monoposto up to 1955 ? I am clearly out of my league for such a work, but one I was just thinking about his Vanderwell's first Ferrari. It was sent back to Maranello I think, then what ?
     
  16. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Also on my list....
    There had been 12 swing axle cars built in 1948/49, of which 9 series 1 with 2160 mm wheelbase, and 3 series II with 2320 mm. The further history of 9 cars is known to me, 3 are - partly - open.

    #02C, the "grandmother", after returned by Vandervell in November 1949 to Maranello rapaired and partly rebodied and sold to Roberto Vallone as new. Returned by him in anger mid 1950 to Ferrari (sic "Go to hell old man...") who used it as "house whore", e.g. for Chinetti at Barcelona 1950. Also in 1951 it was lent sporadically to secondary drivers who had been ready to pay for their ride.

    Another SWB car was on loan to Bracco for 1950, and in 1st half 1951 to Scuderia Guastalla. Later that year also sporadically to Scuderia Marzotto.
    The 3rd SWB car was that on loan to Raymond Sommer in 1950, which in 1951 went to Scuderia Marzotto (together with the 2 newer F2/50 cars), Raffaeli won the Rome GP with this car. Around mid 1951 one of these cars (probably #0108, old #08C) went to Brazil to Pinheiro Pires, possibly by Frenchman Jean Achard.

    So at the end of 1951 only 2 old 1948/49 SWB cars had been existing in Europe still in their 1949 layout, #02C and most probably #0112, both in 166 F2 configuration. The first owned by the SF, the latter by the Marzottos. From 1952 on it's getting difficult, they had been raced sporadically by various backmarkers, but it is unknown whether on loan or as property. No photos at all in my archive, so nothing known about potential faceliftings.

    I understand that today 0112 is displayed at the "Galleria Ferrari". The bodywork has the typical 1951 style, but that may be a recreation. Anybody around knowing more about that car?
    So in fact old #02C would be the only available solution for the Mulhouse car, but as my research still contains a lot of uncertainties it could also be one of the other 8 SWB cars as well.
     
  17. ERault

    ERault Karting

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    I have sent an email to the museum. I will keep you posted on what they have to say.
     
  18. maserich

    maserich Karting

    Mar 13, 2008
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    0184 F2 is the only 500F2 with the first example of the 4 cylinder Ferrari engine. It is probably the oldest or second oldest 4 cyl. Ferrari engine in the world. Still has the mags on the back of the engine. Only one other like that. And it doesn't have a car.
    When I was at Schlumpf, they let me open it up and photograph anything I wanted to.
    If someone can visit the Museum, which I highly recommend, ask to look at the other F2 car. They will probably be happy to help.
     
  19. Onebugatti

    Onebugatti Formula Junior
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    #19 Onebugatti, Sep 10, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Sorting through her now, looking for any Argentine photos with the chevy motor. She was exported with a Talbot Lago T26C, monposto. Bramford sourced the original motor from the works, DK did an extensive and accurate restoration for Sherman Wolf . I drove her on the track a few months ago, and it is really a treasure to drive, a real jewel. Well balanced, fast, and in the corners very stable. Usally I am not impressed, but with this particular car - it was managable magic.

    Photo is what you asked for....at Monaco in 1956
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