512 BB or 512BBi Pricing

I've noticed that most 512 BB*'s on E-Bay are not meeting their reserves. NADA puts average retail at about $53k and high retail at $78.4k. Based upon recent sales (dealer & private party) what are these cars getting now?



Kevin
Saratoga, NY
'87 328GTS

 

I think what they are really bringing is dependant upon condition...condition...condition....and naturally everyone's car for sale is "perfect"....now isn't it ?

The posted asking prices do nothing but mislead.....therefore it really isn't easy to put your finger on it. I've been watching the Boxer market and it is a head scatcher for sure.

What I have noticed is that some are listed for less than they would have been last year......and that most everything for sale which I can remember all needed major services...etc...etc...etc.....

But I am just one man with one perception......

 

The latest issue of the FML shows the 'asking price' for the BB512i going up with the other two Boxer models going down...but, there's no way to tell what they're really selling for .

 

can anybody show me any carb boxers that are actually for sale or that have sold in the low fifties? i have been looking and even the ones that need service are just out of my reach. perhaps if a dealer gets one ( Cav Motors? ) i can trade in the GTB !!!

 

The few that I have seen on dealers websites have been in the 60's.

 

There was a carbed Boxer that sold for $95k on a dealers site awhile back,it had very low miles and a picnic table dot bumper on it, I have not seen any Boxer hit its reserve on ebay all year and have only seen 3 carbed models on ebay all year 2 512s and a 365 but many BBi's as there are many more here in the US.

The carbed models sell for more in Europe but are less desirable here as most prefer the BBis for its percieved better reliability with FI and emmssion passing abilities, so BBi's bring higher prices but it could also be BBi's as a whole seem to be kept in better shape thru the years as many carbed cars have had a hard life or been wrecked, you just don't see that many for sale here.

I have not seen or heard of a carbed car selling in the 50s, I don't know where FML got that info unless it was the phony ebay auction on the red/black one a few weeks ago, most seem to be starting in the high 70s some in the 80s.As some say Boxers are a hard sell still IMO so prices are all over, I think it will be awhile before they begin to really appreciate in value.

 

As a new (July 04') 512 BBI owner, I can offer my experience with the purchase of my 82'. My first color choice was Black on Tan, and previously owning carb'ed cars, I no longer wanted to go there. It had to be injected.

The car I purchased was offered on E-bay. This is where I found the car, but not how I purchased it. I contacted the representing dealer located in New York direct off E bay, and struck a deal direct after reviewing the service records they faxed me. The 30k major receipt was itemized, and I could see that it was a full engine out including seals, timing belts idler bearings valve clearance adjustment and water pump.The maintenance was less than 4 years old. That was on a Friday. I provided a deposit that day, but a deposit was not enough to fully secure the car. To fully secure it would require the full balance paid in full. This could not be actioned until Monday. The E-bay auction was still running that weekend and by Monday morning there were 39 bids placed on it and with 5 days left to go. The reserve was still not met. The E bay price was just under $70k. Not far from my agreed price for the car. I secured the car on Monday morning and the auction was stopped. I found out later that one of the E-bay bidders was a previous owner who wanted the car back. I, with my big mouth had tipped him off that the car was available while calling him to gain info for my purchase.

The car was delivered, after my receipt of a certified compression test. The car was very well represented by the dealer. They
offered a 90 day, 4K warranty which I took full advantage of.

One BBI I had called on through cars.com prior to my purchase was an 83' located in the southeast. Mileage was in the low teens. When I questioned recent maintenance, the representing dealer replied, that "a" CV joint boot had been recently replaced. I replied "you were there, and only replaced one of the four?" Yes, he said. In which I promptly replied "goodbye".

In my opinion, a Boxer is one of the best performance values on the market today. With it's limited build numbers, and high build quality, the Boxer offers classic Pinninfarina styling. Boxer's don't represesent an 80's "retro" look that offered short term styling. Like a Rolex, they have aged very well and stood up to the test of time. With this, my thoughts are they will offer a good return over time if maintained to a high standard.

Dave

 

My Boxer purchase is a very similiar story to Dave Bendl's (post below).

I bought mine 14 months ago after seeing it on eBay too. It had been listed and relisted on there a number of times without ever getting close to it's reserve price.

After another failed auction (I didn't bid at all), I wrote the seller and asked that he call me. He agreed to allow a PPI to be done by a well known shop in his area. The inspection came back clean and we agreed on a final price. I had the car picked up and shipped to me. It all worked out great and I have been pleased with my purchase.

I haven't seen a Boxer actually "sell" on eBay for way over a year. None of them ever meet their reserves. All of the sales seem to be done off line and eBay is basically just used as an "advertisement" for the cars to be seen by potential buyers. This happens all the time with the higher end stuff on there.

Not to many people are willing to be bidding against others for a $70K+ car, without having an inspection done first to know what they are really buying.

Here's a Boxer that sold at auction for $89,100 while I was down in Monterey in August:

http://www.russoandsteele.com/index.php?action=dsp_function&functionID=7&order_by=category&vehicle_year=&vehicle_make=FERRARI&vehicle_model=512+BBI&catID=&Go=Go

I never made it over to see the car in person, but a couple of other people on Chat who had, said it wasn't in that great of condition.

I think the price for BBs has no where to go but UP.

More and more of them will be leaving this country, because the Euro is so strong and Boxers are really popular in Europe.

 

I too found my BB512i on ebay. I didn't bid, but rather contacted the seller via phone and made the arrangements to inspect the car. After it checked out, I traded my 1994 348 Spider even for the Boxer.

 

I talked to Forzamotorsports.com about this car a year ago - it was well referenced, solid mechanical history, and Peter (I think it was) was asking $79k USD for the car. Last major was '95 or so, but apparently negligible miles since. Not sure if was updated prior to Monterey.

The only public source of information I've found on BBi Selling prices is Keith Martin's SportsCarMarket.com. I subscribed and find the detailed info on condition and sell price very useful. I forget the details, but a few right-hand Boxer's went for mid $50's USD at a UK auction a few months ago.

Very clean and perfect Boxer's seem to go for high prices, average ones seem to go for average prices, with average prices possibly even dropping, with very clean cars going for a bit more - maybe because of the $ but I think it's a genuine rise. Keith had published a 20 year price graph for BBi's in one of his magazines - except for the bump in the '89 - '90 period, it's a pretty flat graph with a small rise. I'm betting it's not going to change much - I'm hoping the large number of TR's will help keep Boxer prices down to earth.

For what it's worth, I would not buy from the "Boxer King" in Montreal - check all your due diligence thoroughly.

 

this was from a few years ago, and seems to be an exception:

http://www.ferraris-online.com/cars/37715/37715a.html

 

i saw that car and must say it was a classic 20 footer! it would have been easy to spend 30k on that car to make the interior and exterior presentable.

makes it easy to see how really good boxers are more pricey.

 

Interesting topic. I have been semi-seriously, my wife always worries at this point, looking at BB Boxers. See BBi’s for sale but rarely BB’s. A car I have wanted for years!
Frank, at the time you traded the 348 spider for the BBi, the 348 spider market was around mid to upper $60's if I recall correctly. Boxers have held value, 348 spiders have dropped considerably!

 

Yes, my 348 to Boxer trade has turned out great in that I love the Boxer and its value has increased over my ex-348 by a large margin. Win-Win as far as I'm concerned.

 

Most dealers will tell you that e-bay for exotics, is generally just an advertised listing. They rarely have a deal go thru exclusively the e bay way. - Even when the car hits its reserve. Seem familiar ? Most of the e-bay buyers here, struck their "deals" off line. Of course you can never tell by the pics. They may not even be the real pics of the car listed. Everything looks pretty from 20 feet away. Even a 1960's four door Pontiac.



I am amazed the Boxer is still around at its current price. Sure I am biased. No doubt. But look what is around the Boxer ! Where is the Lusso and 275 GTB ? Yes it is from a different era with small production #'s. The Daytona ? Is'nt a really good one around 175 ? What comes after the BBi ? They built how many of those ?

 

......about which car to locate.


For me color is secondary. Look for a very good car with excellent mechanical condition and records. The 50/55K vehicle is probably not that car. It will usually be a rough car, with little or no paperwork. Suppose you pay 50K for a bargain ? Six months later it comes time to fix something !!! You show up at the repair shop. Now it comes time to pay $$$$ to fix the car. You dump more $$$$ into the car. It now appears you are heading towards the 60/65K+ mark, for bringing the bargain "UP," into being a reliable vehicle.

Guess what ? The Bargain is still worth 50/55K ? Why ? Cosmetically it is the same. You did not put a 15K paint job on the car, and re-do the shot interior. You still have not solved the problem of no documentation of prior services, and records. - That cannot be solved. The car will "never" look like the 70/75K car, and have the pedigree of that class of car. It will always be a driver at best. - Unless you want to pay for a real restoration. With todays market, that will make no sense.

 

agreed! it really is good money investing in a great boxer as it is a car that will never be duplicated by ferrari. at best it is the spartacus of ferrari road cars and at worst it is the last of the hand built ferraris...that can be horribly expensive to repair or restore!

paying 80k for a great car would in my opin be smart money when compared to the mass produced newer cars. when you drive a boxer...there is never any question whether from the driver...or passers by...it is all ferrari!!!

buy the best one you can afford...do not settle!

remember, the cars that have been maintained will always be great cars but the cars that have been bought on the cheap will have been maintained on the cheap (if at all) and will be for sale for obvious reasons.

,...reason being...the owner cannot afford to fix it!!!

 

If a boxer were a 200k car then a 75k restoration for a ropey one would make sense. Also there are a number of great boxers around, as can be seen from previous posts where new owners did there homework. An 80k car is worth a lot more than a 60k car that would need 50-75k to look like the 80k car. Also even the best boxers might need brakes hoses bushings shocks etc. A great car with all of this done still might not fetch more than a good 80k car anyway, but most boxers are not driven these days so might need the money spent on a few basics.

The whole e-bay thing for ferraris is interesting. I do not think e-bay is a place to buy or sell classic ferraris, newer ones can be based on mileage but older cars are a completly different type of buy. Also an ebay 360 buyer is for the most part from a completly different pool as a classic dino, boxer daytona etc buyer. The point is that e-bay might be a showcase but it is no price guide for these types of cars. One thing wholeheartedly I agree Boxers mut be bought on Condition.

 

I am sure this topic has been discussed before but looking at the data listed by Ferrari World the original 365 GT4 BB looks like quite a stunner.
365 GT4 BB 360hp 1120kg
512 BB 360hp 1400kg
512 BBi 340hp 1499kg
With 360hp and only 1120kg in weight the 365 GT4 BB appears to be quite a performer. Light and nimble. Lighter than most modern 8 cylinder Ferraris!

 

That weight quoted for the 365 BB is incorrect. Magazines have weighed Boxers and have come up with approximately 3400 lbs. for the 365 BB and maybe a hundered pounds more for a 512. There is simply no way that it can weigh too much less than a 512, as it is essentially the same car.

 

There's a Euro one for sale over here for £35k.

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/detail.asp?i=32914&s=204

 

The weights are all over the place, FNAs website and Mel Nichols book state the 2700 for the 365 and 3045 for the 512BB, the 512BB OM states 3300lbs, they also stated A/C and power windows were and option for the 365 thus not included in the factory weights, but IMO a 365 should weigh at least 150lbs less than a 512BB with the same options on each as the dry sump, larger displacement engine, slightly changed bodywork and wider wheels add up to at least this.That said the power to weight ratio is similar to a 360 but BBs have the instant torque of the 12s vs the cammy V8s.

I have a R&T article on a dot converted 78 512BB with the picnic table front bumpers with impact shocks and added subframe to support this stuff along with air pump and cats weighing in at 3650lbs, it still managed 0-60 in less than 5.5 seconds, the earlier test they did with a 365 did 0-60 in 6.7 but had a slipping clutch so it should have done much better.

 

SteveB while the BB512 and BB512i are essentially the same car, the 365GT4/BB is not. The 365 Boxer is shorter, has a different frame and body as well as different mechanical parts. If you look at a 365 Boxer beside either of the 512 Boxers you can notice the differences...note the rear window on the 365 is much shorter. So, I have no doubt that the 365 Boxer is a lot lighter that the 512 ones. However, the recent issue of Cavallinos' new Flat 12 magazine indicates that the hp and weights of the three Boxers are different from what spider348 posted. It has the BB512 and BB512i as both having 340hp with the 365 as having 343 hp. It also list the BB512i as lighter than the BB512 although it agrees that the 365GT4/BB is the lightest of the three Boxers. I suppose the only way to know for sure is to assemble all three Boxer models together and weigh them .

 

A nice but not perfect red boxer sold here in Dallas for $60K, 30K miles needing belts last time I saw it 3 months ago. A BB sold at 65 not 95K from Sheehans, dont know condition although it looked good on paper (screen? ).Lots of cars seem to be available. Just wasted lots of time ,money ,and effort on a mis-represented 365 which also looked good on screen. Plan on spending 60 to 85 for a good one. The Black one brought up earlier won best in show at a local DFW event and was VERY impressive.Anyone nit picking this car didnt see it.

 

The 512BB that sold for $95k wasn't the Sheehan Boxer, it was a red/black bottom 78 or 79 with 900 miles on it. It was a few months back posted on a dealers site.

I saw the Black BBi at the Rm auction displayed outside in the main area and watched it driven in and auctioned off, the car looked nice and had big crowds around it.I don't know if this is same one you think it is but I have a good eye for paint and defects and it was very thick and had ripples in it all over in a few spots on the doors, roof and rear clamshell, the hood also had wavy ripples in it, they were minor but noticeable, it's possible a good color
sander could have blocked some of them out.
A guy looking to buy it there put a paint gauge on the steel cabin and it was off his paint reader it was so thick but thats nothing major as all Boxers have very thick filler on them.



Hemmings has a few Boxers they start at $80k for a white one up to $100k for another, some of these are listed on ebay as well, 2 years ago $65-$75k Boxers were common not so much today.