So, I was asked by someone to compare the above on another website, and thought this might be of interest here too. Quote Prompted by Browngt3's post in the classic Ferrari section inviting thoughts on driving impressions and ownership, now I'm a few months into 512BB ownership I've jotted down a few thoughts on the above in a new thread. I suppose that everyone has different things they are hoping to get/achieve from driving and owning these cars, so this is necessarily a very personal viewpoint. Quite a lot of the numbers are from memory which might not be perfect! These are old cars and I've only driven one of each of them, so while I think that each of them is a good example, I don't have a benchmark and of course the condition of old cars, mechanically and cosmetically, varies a lot. For what it is worth the 512BB is 1977, and was fully restored by a well respected specialist, finishing in 2016. It won some prizes for condition as recently as last year, and did very few miles since restoration (off the top of my head I've done as many in the last few months as the car covered since restoration). it has 31k miles on the clock but that isn't really relevant as it was completely rebuilt. It is RHD and last had a major service this year. The Testarossa is a 1988 Euro-spec car, so LHD, and has similar mileage. I've had it about eight years. Previous documentation is patchy but I bought it off a garage owner who specialised in maintaining Ferraris and similar vehicles, and rally support. It was his personal car for several years and my impression is he is a very good mechanic. I would say it is in very good condition but not concours and had a major service last year. I will abbreviate the Testarossa to TR but please don't confuse this with the 512 TR which is a different model. The Countach is a 1986 RHD QV with less than 40k miles and I've had it a bit over two years. It too has been regularly serviced all it's life and has had all new bushes/rose joints a few thousand miles ago. Overall it is in very good condition and mechanically it might qualify as excellent. I am not aware of any mechanical jobs that are outstanding on all three cars. Weight and size Without looking them up, I think the weight is pretty similar for all three cars, in the 1400kg ish or a bit more range. The TR and Countach have alloy panels, though the TR is a fair bit bigger than the 512BB so the alloy panels perhaps balance the size difference, in terms of the weight. The Countach is the shortest of all (over a foot shorter than the TR), it really is small considering it has a large V12. The 512BB is narrower than the other two by about six inches. In modern terms these are all pretty small volume especially when you consider the height. Performance Well, this was the most important thing to me as a kid but now things are different. In terms of power figures the order is Countach (455hp) TR (390hp) and 512BB (360hp). Performance is also in that order. Even though these are now very old cars of course at the time they were each one of, if not the, quickest cars available. The Countach I would say is significantly quicker than the TR, especially at the lower end. The TR has the least drag, though, so probably at high speeds this evens out a bit although I can't claim to drive at very high speeds frequently enough to study that! I don't have a modern supercar, and I'm sure that any modern supercar will blow them into the weeds, but what I will say is that they all still feel quick even now. The other point to mention is that they are all normally aspirated large capacity V12 (5 litres for the Ferraris and 5.2 for the Countach) so they have plenty of torque and they just keep pulling smoothly and strongly. Handling The first thing to mention is that all three have unassisted steering. Unsurprisingly when stationary it is relatively heavy but you won't be likely to be spending a lot of time in that state. When driving, all three have rewarding steering. The Countach is the most precise, closely followed by the TR. The 512BB has precise steering but the tyres have high sidewalls and as such I think there is quite a bit of "give" in them. As such, small movements do change direction but not as immediately as the other two. However, the steering on all three is lovely especially when compared to some of the regular modern cars. I'm no car control expert, the only one I've had sideways is the TR, which went sideways a couple of times in damp conditions. It was not deliberate, I caught it quickly, but you're conscious there is a big engine quite far back and relatively high up (the gearbox is below the "flat" 12). In normal enthusiastic use, I'd say the TR benefits over the 512BB because of the more modern low profile tyres. The Countach is better still, the gearbox is more or less between the seats so the weight distribution feels better and it has low profile tyres. The rears are also huge, you'd have to be going some to unstick them, in the dry at least. Ignoring the "on the limit" point, which is pretty difficult to analyse if you've only had one on the limit, I'd say the Countach is by far the most precise to drive. The suspension is rose-jointed and as such there isn't any play in the joints (assuming they are in good condition). Aside from the precision, the structure also feels significantly stiffer than the Ferraris - it has a spaceframe chassis which I suspect is a lot more rigid than the others. I've not done a track day in any of them and I doubt two of them would get through the noise test, if not all three. Having said all that, the steering on all three is really nice and one of the good things about driving them which you can enjoy at any speed (apart from parking). Transmission All three have dog-leg five speed boxes. The Countach lever goes straight down into the 'box. It is heavy and precise to my mind. The Ferrari open gate has been written about many times, so I'll just say it works really well, and is part of the experience. It also looks great 🙂. So far as the clutch is concerned, the Countach clutch is quite heavy, but the 512BB clutch is heavier still. I'm not sure if that is just my car but it saves on gym membership. The TR is the lightest as you'll have deduced by now. Brakes These cars can still go quickly but the brakes remain old-fashioned and anticipation is your friend. The 512BB is the weakest, then the Countach and the TR is the best. None have ABS of course! Noise I lack the skill to describe the noises really well, so I'll restrict myself to a few comments. Firstly they all sound BRILLIANT! The noise is one of the best things about all three, and I struggle to think of many cars that sound better (though the GMA T50 is one). They are all NA 12 cylinders but they do differ. The Countach at lower revs actually sounds a bit muscle car but at mid to high revs really screams. It has a sports exhaust on it, and six twin choke carbs add intake noise. The 512BB has an Ansa exhaust and four triple choke carbs, and that sounds more cultured than the Countach, a really "quality" sound if you see (hear?) what I mean. The TR has some kind of sports exhaust on it, I'm not sure of the make but it is "just right". It is a little noisy but sounds like an old F1 car when it is at high revs. The TR is injected, so no carb sucking noises. Having said that I lack the skill to describe the noises really well, I realise I also lack the ability to choose which I like best. They are all different, but probably I'd put the TR and 512BB on the same plane. I have heard the standard TR exhaust is really quiet, though, and I don't think I've heard a better exhaust on a TR than mine (bias admitted). But the noise these cars make is fantastic even when going slowly. Practicality An odd heading, none of these are "practical". But I'd say the TR and Countach have actually got decent boot space if you want to go away. The 512BB also has a small boot but some space behind the seats (the TR also has space behind the seats). Aircon works pretty well in the TR, reasonably in the 512BB and on my Countach it doesn't work that well though it does work to some extent and I have been able to improve it. I think it needs further tittivating before coming to a verdict. It is more important in the Countach due to the tiny window opening. One point to note is the doors on the TR are really deep because of the strakes, so you need a wider garage than usual to get in or out. The Countach, by contrast, has doors that go straight up, but about six feet high so you need some height - you can't put it under a ramp easily, for example. Rear visibility in the Countach is woeful, in part because of the hump over the carbs on the QV model. Fuel economy All three have exceptional fuel economy whilst stationary...... Maintenance It is difficult to be specific about this because routine maintenance is one thing and repairs are another. For routine maintenance the 512BB and TR have belts and most people seem to change them on a four or five year cycle, with minor services in between. The engine comes out, but it is designed to, so that isn't as bad as it might sound. There are a number of specialists who offer a fixed price for that job. Of course, there will be "while you are there" jobs that arise when removing the engine. The Countach has chains rather than belts so doesn't need that periodic engine removal for servicing. By contrast, I believe a clutch change on a 512BB or TR isn't particularly hard, but a Countach requires engine and box removal and the clutch parts are very much more expensive. Aside from regular servicing, if you need repairs then obviously there is scope for costs to rise significantly. Routine parts for these cars are not a major issue but other parts can be very hard to find in some case and correspondingly expensive. Fortunately I've not had much that falls into this category but if you get an example that needs much work this will be more of a factor. Purely because of the production numbers, subjectively bits for Testarossas are less expensive and more readily available. There is also the "hunt the parts bin" entertainment option. Mechanically, though, the engines on all three are reputed to be very strong. There are reports of weak diffs in the TR and (perhaps to a lesser extent) in the 512BB. Styling This is totally subjective of course. To my eyes the 512BB is such a beautiful shape, and the big orange indicators are unique. It is a lovely blend of elegance and taut muscle. The TR, when it came out and for a long time after, I didn't like that much. It had a really tough act to follow. However, time has been kind to it and perhaps because it was unique I think it has aged really well. The Countach is just spectacular. It looks amazing and it is hard to believe that it was first on the road 50-odd years ago. I don't tend to show my cars that much, and when I do I tend to leave them and walk around, but the reaction to these cars is pretty universally positive. One thing I didn't expect is the impact the Countach has on people - I think the Cannonball Run and all those posters, plus the rarity are the reasons. Even quite keen car enthusiasts say they have never seen one/only seen one etc. Other thoughts Having tried to analyse this somewhat, and I have found it an interesting exercise, of course the most important point to evaluate is how the car makes you feel. Each of them is a really special experience if, like me, you like Italian cars from that era. They also had a place in my mind growing up, be it Top Trumps, the aforementioned Cannonball Run, or Miami Vice etc. They look fantastic, sound fantastic and feel fantastic. To my mind the Countach stands out as it is the most spectacular in terms of looks, the sharpest to drive and the fastest. It is more difficult to separate the 512BB and TR but I'd say I prefer the looks of the BB but the drive of the TR. The TR is the easiest to just hop in and drive anywhere. There are probably things I've forgotten to mention but I hope that BrownGT3 at least is still with us after my essay! Unquote
I own an ‘87 TR, owned a downdraft until last year, and my first Italian exotic was a 365 BB. Your analysis feels spot on. Buy a TR for the ease of use, the BB for the bargain and beauty, and the Countach...just because. Nothing quite like a manual shifting Italian mid engine 12 cylinder. Bonus points for Webers.
I never drove a Countach nor a BB512 but they should have really terrible brakes if the testarossa (again, not a 512TR) has the best of the three Besides, thanks for a very informative analysis.
I have all three and a Diablo to boot. The Countach is a better sports car than the BB or the TR - that tube frame coupled with no rubber in the suspension and low profile tires makes a huge difference in handling. None have modern brakes but will stop you with force once, maybe twice. All four sound amazing (but different). The Countach 2 valve cars suffer a flat spot in the midrange due to cams and ignition timing, but you can learn to drive around it. I used to drive the TR to work and drive the BB on longer distance trips. If I know I am going to drive the Countach in the morning I don’t sleep the night before as I practice the driving route in my head (it still gives me sweaty palms after 18 years of ownership). In comparison an early 2wd Diablo is a love child of the TR and the Countach. Still crazy, but easier to use. Probably the best of the bunch, value vs performance wise.
cobra vs boxer... thats a whole diff bottle of wut Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Back when I was choosing a 12 cylinder super car of that era I was completely in love with the Countach . Found a low mile perfect one owned by the national Lambo club president for a great price . Right until I rode , not even drove , in another . Mind blown . Banana seats left back pains for a day or more . TRs at the time were unloved : Engine out maintenance cost was a third of buy in cost . BBs were rare and special . And I must say one of the most enduring and beautiful Ferrari designs ever. IMO a better car than the 288GTO . Obviously the market disagrees. I chose a 512 BB . The last of the hand made carbureted Ferrari V12s. Turned down a 365 BB at 30% less because it was misrepresented . I think mine is third or fourth from the end of production before they went injected .
Most welcome! I think the seat comfort is an individual thing, I don’t really have any problem in my Countach. I can see the lack of rake adjustment would pose an issue for some, though,
I keep wondering when the market will wake up on BBs. Wonder if Ferrari abandoning the mid-engine V-12 regular production market after just two models somehow signaled a failure for the community at-large that depressed prices.
We've all wondered when the Boxer would have its Countach moment, but I don't think anyone ever saw them as a failure by any means. There were 3 boxers and 3 TR models in total, so 6 variants of the 180 degree mid 12, from 1973 to 1996, that's almost a quarter of a century, 23 yrs, a pretty good run. Both outsold their Lambo alternatives at the time by wide, wide margins. The Boxer was never US imported, but the TR was a huge global sales and publicity success. As I recall, it was Luca's focus on the product portfolio with an emphasis on usability that brought the engine back to the front for that classic V-12 experience with their "top" 2 seater GT. The F50 brought the mid 12 back, and between sales of the 550 onward together with the limited anniversary series ever since, his turned out to be a brilliant product strategy.
Ive owned two of them(lp5000 and a BBI still have) and driven all 3. All depends what you're looking for and where you live. While none of these cars are notionally modern fast, theyre all rpetty quick, way faster than you can sanely use on the road, and are faster than the numbers suggest. In the USa there is this obsession with acceleration esp from standstill. Between the way these cars shift and their clutches none are going to have a great 0-60, however in gear acceleration can show a modern a thing or two. For example in FL where I now live a tr would be the best choice, the ac works, its reasonably comfy and roads here are mostly big and straightish. The car also feels maybe big enough that you're not totally vulnerable in modern suv traffic. I also thought the Tr sounded great and had really nice steering. However the tr is a very specific look, lets say not exactly classic and you have to be into that, its also more of a Gt car. Id say as with the 355 its a transitional car between the classic ferrari formula and the more modern easy to use cars. The boxer, pure art to look at in way ferrari and others just dont do anymore. Its also more of a commitment. Ive heard the ac described as squirrel blowing though a straw. Between the greenhouse hot sill and radiator blowing over the front, well a good working ac can keep you cool on a cloudy day or at night, but otherwise probably not. In ythe cut and thirst of modern traffic a BB has excellent outward visibility and once you get used to it a bit is really useable. As with all these cars, the drive starts with a lengthily warmup, and then slowly working the speed up. Someone once compared these3 to fine bottle of wine to be uncorked let the breathe and then be savored. A porche is like a beer, pull the tab and go. Performance wise, I have freind with a BBI like mine and a Tr. On backroads in ct, tight turns and fast sweepers, he can keep pace with me in his BBI, the Tr simply cant keep up, too big heavy and ponderous in comparison. Makes sense, more or less the same suspension, BBs are shorter and lighter than a Tr. A BBI will be slower than a Tr or Ctr, but its tq and in gear accleration can make it feel quicker esp in 3rd and 4th gear, thats just a 2 valve motor tq. The Ct, you can see in front, not necessarily to the sides, so driving on say the highway you need to accelerate into the gaps. The motor puts out power but is not nearly as refined smooth or sonorous as the Ferrari motors. I also found the CT at an indicated 160+ to get really light in the front end. While the motor would happily pull way past there, above an indicated 170 oil and water temps rose rapidly before det set in. The Ct to me was probably the best steering car I have driven between say 80-130. Below 80 it was too heavy at the wheel, and above 130ish the aero issues start to set in. The transmission, its really not dissimilar shifting to a tractor, and you do get gear while etc in the cabin. A BB or Tr shift near the redline as your supposed to and shifts are sublime. On the BBI its not as sweet steering as the CT, but lightens up earlier and is really stable at speed, its not as fast on top, but feels stronger down low, and visibility is not an issue. The Ct though, its looks(pre 25 aniv) thats pure concept car art, and I guess thats the drawback, its a road legal concept car with all that implies. Performance wise, how relevant is that today when a honda CTR will be quicker. What's your use cycle. If its taking a car to shows, hard to beat a countach. If driving is your pleasure and you have some twists and turns to play with, a BB hits many sweet spots ad is comfy and easy enough to drive to some great roads. If I lived at the foot of the right road, well a ct has its thing going on. To me its sorta like comparing a Gen 2 Camaro toa jag xjs, similar performance and concept but very different refinement. The Ct is also nothing short of Iconic. Ive had both and kept the BB because I really use my car and had to make a choice. That choice was made back when values were similar. Hindsight is 20/20. Nowadays I barely use the BB, so its better useability would be less of a factor and the Ct due to its rise in vale and styling, well maybe I should kept that. Really all depends on what your use cycle is and where you live. But to me a BB always had the drivability and useability a Ct lacks, and yet it has the classic art in motion styling of the great classic ferris a TR totally lacks. On the open road big highway a TR and a countach are going to be faster than a BB. In the 50-140 range esp with corners Tr will be last and the CT BB will be neck and neck depending on. Back in the day the CT came with p7s and has that rose jointed suspension. There are really good options now to put 17 inch tires on a BB/I which improve steering, grip and ride while retaining the classic wheel look. IM a BB steering will always feel more rubbery compared toa ct, but after 40 years bushings should be redone anyway and you can use some stiffer bushings the differences are not that great. IMO the biggest factor with all these is car condition and IMo there are very few 40+ year old exotics that drive as they should, that applies to restored cars to.
You never know sometimes why cars get left behind.....the Boxer is a beautiful design (although shares too much of a family resemblance to the 308 IMO).
People used to wonder that about Miuras when they were stuck at 85K forever, and Ghiblis used to be a nowhere car too. Of the me cars, yeah a countach is iconic in a stark sort of way. A BB its second only tot he miura in beauty, and both have those front and rear clams. The collector car market is populated mostly by checkbook warriors checking boxes on a list they've bene given or read. There was a time in the 90s where a f40 was 2x a 288 and peopel said the 288 would never shine because it looked like a 308. Eventually the market figures things out, the BBS time will come, objectively and subjectively it has everything going for it, but 2 factors. In period it was outshone by the CT on bedroom walls and the ct was "faster", so the Bb wasn't the "fastest" the BB also wasn't in movies or on Miami vice. However a BB Objectively and subjectively belongs int he grouping smack dab in the middle of the miura and 288. The miura was an 85k forever, half the value of a daytona, its certainly not that drivable, but has classic good looks, Bb second only to that in looks department. Obviously a BB is not as rare as a 288, but arguably a more harmonious beautiful design, and a well running Bb in the modern context has similar performance for 1/10th the price. As BBs get restored then as with etype jags the faults can be eliminated by those who know what theyre doing while performance is greatly enhanced in a car that for concors purposes looks 100% stock. The BBs day will come, just as it came for the miura and Ghibli not to mention the masser 35000Gt which was a 35k car all day long.
True, but there has been two major waves in the past decade (2014-2016 & 2020-2022) and even stupid stuff that was newer (ex 458) were pulled off their depreciation curve and gained value. But the BB barely caught either wave (I was pretty close to buying Michael Anthony's Boxer for $150k in 2012, and I charted prices pretty diligently in that period).
Speak of the devil. Walked by a bookstore in Bologna today and got their last copy of this gorgeous Boxer bible displayed in the window. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
BB was stuck at 80-90K forever, then we saw suddenly over 200k in the runup to the 2015 peak when they went over 400k. To my mind cars inedex to new levels, once a BB crested 200k it moved from the cool but old obsolete car level (populated by 360s today) into the first tier of collectables. Its true BBs are not millennial operable like a dino, but then imagine a Miura. Not saying BBs will reach Miura levels but with Miura's above 1 mill there is lots of headroom there
I dont get the newer instant collectable market. I guess if sf90 pricess are an indicator the markets getting more discerning there too. 458 prices I do get. The first really good looking Ferrari since the 308 BB, a shape that once again has true harmony, and a purity of line not since repeated. plus the seminal na v8 motor. I can see these days even the obscene new pcar prices coming down to earth, a brand new Gt4rs went recently on BAT for 7 k over list, so less than the tax paid by the first owner. Plus there are now no shortage of those with 1k or more miles where the owners are trying to get back to what they paid the dealer, which was 50+k over list. IMO the 458 speciale and the subsequent pista are really special cars, as is a Mcalkren 600LT. In porches land the 997b series probably the best car they made, not too big, drives great. The 997 Gt3 is simply subline in every way, so i get those prices. But the newer stuff hard to tell one from another esp the 991 and 992. Sady many modern used prices were driven by hey i have a ferrai and have arrived mentality, in newish porche land the car is just part of the sucess unform like the rolex all owners seem to have. I get porche though to a point, theyre all useable, even the aircooled ones work as useable classics. A BB to drive is more for peopel who actualy and Drive and derive pleasure from that, which means in a Bb you kind of got to be above 7/10ths or its not that pleasant, hence the more limited market. But BBs can translate to the car is art market as miuras do, thats when we'll see the big price rise.
By way of a few thoughts, the first is that Boxerman makes some good points and interesting observations, thank you. Those comments seem to me to be on point. My only additional comment is I suspect the performance gap is larger when comparing a QV Ct as it has quite a bit more power than the 5000s Ct, but I fully agree that all these cars still feel fast when underway. In terms of the value topic, I too don't get the strong prices for newish supercars, which are made in large numbers comparatively speaking. That seems to be calming down and returning to what we always experienced as normal. I agree the 458 will always be desirable, it is the main modern that appeals to me. When comparing the three cars in terms of value, I do think the Boxer is the bargain, relatively speaking within these very peculiar goal posts. It is much much rarer than the TR and is Pininfarina at the top of their game, with an amazing engine. It seems bizarre that it may be (perhaps, roughly speaking) a third or a quarter of the cost of a Ct these days. Production numbers were similar between the Boxers and the Ct in all variants although it took 16 years or so of Ct production to get there, as opposed to about ten for the Boxer, so they had longer to sell more posters! I'm not sure that will change, but equally higher values usually equates to higher ownership costs, so it may not be a bad thing that they carry on as they are. They are already sufficiently valuable that people are restoring them to a high standard, and some are being improved, which is a positive.
I think I asked you once about the a/c on a 512 BBi. You compared the a/c to that of an asthmatic gerbil. Can't imagine one of these in black being usable in a hot climate or desert. (in the daytime) Joe
even when the ac works theee is much heat from the front bulkhead and sills, the ac can some with that but add sunshine and humidity beating through the windshield and it’s too much. The car can sorta deal with it at speed but as soon as you slow own game over. im sure a more modern system and some heat deadening would solve this. But as with many things on a the bb they’re best when sympathetically upgraded and faults removed. But then while infinitely better with performance approaching g a 288 they’re not concors. the Ferrari world or porche seems to wnat strict originality regardless.of crappy 70s compromises, whereas over at porche jaguar and eve. Pantera improving intake the ac and oter bits seems to add to desirability wheels and tires are easy to swap back and forth and the first upgrade to do, brakes imo are fine esp with the right pads on a bb or bbi engine internals can be upgraded wile maintaining stiock look. On a bbi that means on order of a real 400hp with a full pull to refine which is more important than peak power. a bb moded or a bbi with efi trmpets etc are easily in the 450-475 ho range but then Its no longer concors stock looking.
