512bbi vs. 512TR?

With the price of 512bb/bbi and 512TR both have increased significantly in the past 12 months, which do you think is a better investment value, 512bbi vs. 512TR?

Will the price of a well maintained fairly low mileage 512TR pass that of a higher mileage 512bb/bbi (drivers car and not a showroom example)?
Take for example, the '83 512bbi with 43k miles from SF Sports Cars vs. the recent Sheehan listing of a '92 512TR with 21k miles, both have a similar asking price of ~$300k.

https://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/cardetail.php?reqcardir=FE-512TR-90817
1983 Ferrari 512 BBi for Sale

 

I prefer the 512 BB - because I have one

 

Owned all three - 512bb, 512bbi, 512tr. Best driver is the 512tr obviously. If I were to chose only one, it would be the 512bbi hands down no second guessing. Rarity and looks seal the deal. Still loads of fun to drive.

 

or you can get both

 

short term - 512TR will probably spike quicker because it is "hot" and has a more room to grow as it started from a lower number (although the one you linked to is already at a high short term price.)

long term - 512BB, rarity will likely win out.

just my two cents

 

512BB for sure if price is similar ; however I think price of 512BB should be about 2-3 times more than 512TR; moreover - instead of 512TR , I would say why not 512M; the price of 512M should be very similar to the good 512BB .

 

The BBs based on low numbers of hand made cars. But if you're working the "Honey, I'm buying it as an investment." You might get a deal on a TR and do pretty well. ;-)

 

I own the 512TR and have to agree with others on 512BBi. rarity and being more of a classic Ferrari I think will keep its value stronger. I suspect people will start driving them less and less though which is a shame.

 

In my opinion the 512 bbi is the first Ferrari super car (production car) and defiantly under valued. I think within 10 years it will eventually hit double or triple numbers of what it sells now..

 

boy am i glad i drove my cars before they got expensive !
to answer the question, i believe the 512tr is a better call at this time since it is starting at a lower level and will track the bb

 

I would say the first F super production car has been the 365 GT4 BB

 

I have a 512M, which I love. But for an investment I would still say a BB. A 365. Beautiful, and rare. Sorry that doesn't answer the question about the 512BBi. At the risk of being disloyal to myself (I also have a testarossa) I would say the BBs are more beautiful cars, and rarer than the whole Testa series including TR, if that drives investment value. But if investment value is driven by other factors, like outrageous looks (countach, testa) or people who dreamed of a car when they were a kid finally coming into money, that favours a 512TR as it's a newer car. The generation who dreamed of BBs (me!!) when small boys are getting old, but the generation who dreamed of TRs are just becoming wealthy. But who knows, maybe they'll all collapse in price like Chateau Lafite in 2011. As long as you love them...just don't buy the Ferrari equivalent of a Lafite 2002. Whatever that is. You have to love drinking/driving it. Apologies for the wine metaphor but it's all about collector/speculator balance when you are talking investments of passion (as the wealth management industry calls them).

 

Actually, wine simile, not metaphor. Correcting myself.

 

I have one of each of these cars and have been wondering the same question myself for a while now.

I'm thinking the current market trends cannot continue and will cease at some point. For a long time the Ferrari market slept quietly not keeping pace with the cost of money, real estate or the stock market.

But those days have passed. Ferraris have recently caught up and way surpassed where they ought to be. Guys who wouldn't look twice at any of these cars at 100k have their interest piqued at 300k. Strange right??

Vintage Ferraris are in the 7 figures and new ones are 300- 500k, so people start looking in the middle. Lots of jumping in prices happens and as the prices elevate, different classes of buyers get attracted. Drivers get displaced by speculators and collectors.

So what happens when the market corrects itself? The speculators jump ship and it's like a bad stock that everyone wants to get out of simultaneously. Then in the end, when the dust settles- the cars with real staying power and worth will hold on to prices to the degree of the their worth.

In the past, corrections have been concurrent with economic downturn. This time the economy is on an upswing. Lots of money starting to be made that leaves more people competing for a finite pool of cars, making any F car desirable depending on your budget.

So will the correction come and when? Will the market falter causing speculators to run and everyone else to be so nervous they run too? Or- Since there's no economic downturn, will things just level off and move forward at a steady pace rather than at this current unrealistic strong pace?

So- I believe both of the cars mentioned have value and neither have tremedous production numbers. I thought the BB/BBi would top out and it might be time to get out this Summer before any correction. On the other hand, the 512TR's are going north, or at least that's what a handful of dealers are trying to make happen.

It's hard to tell what will happen or which is worth having more. I will say preference is personal on the love of the cars, each represents an era in culture and Supercar styling of its own. On the investment ideal- I'd say prices and classic status occurs from the rear, meaning the older cars go collectible first traditionally, and if things start to faulter, the older cars will stay more valuable than newer ones because the newer ones will falter first.

Traditionally- that's the case. But look at all the exceptions to this rule of thumb.

I'm open and would welcome to hear as many viewpoints as possible on this subject- I have been pondering this very subject for some time now and I was happy to see this thread posed to the lot of us to share viewpoints, as this query is a perfect example of why this site exists.

 

PS- Daytonas and Dinos have seemed to level off in price. If that's the case then anything cheaper will work towards prices that level them off in today's market.

Testarossas are going where Boxers were a few years ago and everything in between is filling in the appropriate gaps at the different prices points.

Anyone agree?

 

In general, yes, however i do think that Datona's and Dino's (along with the majority of vintage Ferraris) still have still a long way to climb .... iconic hand built cars with a real emotional connection to the brand ..... if they have stalled (and i see little evidence of that), then its only natural breather before the next step up in the summer .....too few good cars of this ilk and too much cheap money washing around , for it to be otherwise.
BR,
Jez

 

Moe, that seems a really wise analysis born through experience and really interesting to read. There seem to be lots of different motivations at work and when 100% speculators, who aren't interested in the cars (or cars per se) at all climb in, it's time to get out. Is that happening? Everyone I know who owns Ferraris loves Ferraris/dreamed of them, but was perhaps too nervous or busy to buy something that would be a financial burden. If you're super-busy in your day job, maintenance is money whether it's through your time and skills or a garage - and we all know the single biggest killer on new cars is depreciation. I wouldn't buy new Ferraris for that reason, even though some of them are amazing cars. So we have a whole lot of people like me, part-time car nuts, who can now own and enjoy their dream cars and justify them as being possibly cost-neutral. I really get the idea that is driving the market at the lower/mid end. It is certainly the reason I was able to "Indulge in the dream" with a clear conscience.
The only point of yours I would respectfully disagree with is that the TR market is being driven up by a handful of dealers. The appreciation is across the main classic markets in the world: US, UK, Europe. Private, trade. No dealers have that power. They can certainly help, that's their trade, but there are too many TRs around for a cartel of dealers to be doing that alone. It must be demand-side market forces, as the supply of these cars is plentiful - I imagine more than 9000 Testa/TR/Ms exist in the world.
But you only need a few thousand people like me, who have hankered after the cars but not seriously been able to indulge, to change their minds, and the market moves. They bring in more through word of mouth..and eventually speculators come in.
And Jez makes such a good point about Dinos. There are so few of them!
What does everyone else think?
This is much more interesting than working which is what I'm supposed to be doing here at the office today...

 

I was in the market for a 512TR a few months ago and "settled" for a low miles T.R. instead. What I noticed was that at least here in the U.S. there was maybe 2 or 3 dealers who had literally stock piled 4 to 6 512TR's and were releasing them for sale a few weeks at a time expressing that the subsequent one would be priced 10% higher. They moreover would purchase other 512's that would come up online thus effectively creating a monopoly in price and availability. For that reason I pulled out of the 512TR market and decided to buy a more reasonably priced (less controlled) vintage Ferrari which I think will also be a good investment. Pocket listings are around but there are not online.

 

Yes, that is what I was referring to when I mentioned TR's are being driven up by dealers- There are very few 512TR's out there to buy. Google all day long and you won't find any in the US except a few cars by a few dealers who are making the market.

Testarossas? Yes they made several thousand and dealers believe these cars are on the move too as they stockpile them 10 at a time in their inventories. They're moving up too.
And I believe the dealers are behind it.

In fact all F cars are hott so dealers are doing what dealers do.

But I go back to my previous posting. When will this level off and how?

Yes Daytonas and Dinos have stopped climbing. Yes I beleive they will climb further, but the point is they've leveled off. If they climb further it will be a natural climb.

Perhaps other models will level off too.

So someone asked about BB's vs TR's and this question is integral to the whole F car market and how these to cars fit into the landscape.

Would love to hear any further light anyone wants to shed on this subject.

 

I still think BBs are cooler than Testas/TRs, that's the personal view of someone who owns a Testa and not a BB. If prices swap places, I'm swapping cars. A 512M though, is something else...would I swap my 512M for a 365 BB? (Not thinking of money.) Tough one! Those 6 pipes might swing it..

 

All correct, historicaly a Bb was 50% of daytona and a Tr 60% of a BB, so if things stay staic in hireachy thta is how it prices out.
.
There is also anohter factor at play which changes the relative poistions, and that is what i call reindexing.

Reindexing is where a car becomes percieved int he market as something special and different to prior perception and the model moves into a different category in the pantheon. Dinos are a perfect example, they ebcame athing, the place you coudl go if you didnt have the scratch for a 275GTb, mid engined yes, but similar rounded style and useable.

Anotehr example of reindexing lussos were 100k cars for many years and 2+2 of similar era maybe 50%, and then all 60"s V12's became a thing, so all went up even 2+2s. But 2+2s are in the 200-400K range Lussos over 2 over 1 mill. One of the reasons the percenatges changed is Lussos is one of the most beautiful cars ever, peopel figured it out and the lussso reindexed it become iconic and moved into a different place on the pantheon, a place 2+2s could nto follow.

Now Trs of all types have more breadth of appeal than BBs, whole generations saw them on Tv, they were Us cars, useable, but also porduced in numbers, and not considered classicaly beutiful, which is wher the dino premium for example is..

Boxers have less breadth but more depth. Boxers were not on Tv, they were not Us cars are harder to drive and mroe difficult. However boxers are handbuilt lighter on their feet, classicaly beautiful, more classic to drive and a design unhampered by legislation, perhaps the last. Just look ata boxer witht he clamshells open, pure art,

Looking at the market, if a275 Gtb is 2-3 millplus then daytronas are cheap at under 1mill and will reindex. After all if you are in the 1-2mill range what is there to buy, a daytona is stil an old school classic front engined carbed V12. Its drawback was heavy steering so you had to be going 80+ to really use, now many have an eps retrofit.

Boxers will follow daytonas, one day maybe many cycles from now they will be on par. Boxers have a purity of line that daytonas dont, and the time difference between them becomes less relevant over time. Objectively they are on par, and the market will coem to see that somwhere in the enxt few cysles. Just look the market used to place a 288 way below a F40, not naymore, cars reindex with sensibilities over time.

TR's because of breath and ease of use, ino they still have a ways to go in todays market, plus in 100-200k range what is there to buy, and they surely are the 57 caddy of the 80's.

Is a Tr worth much more than a testarossa. In the shoter term yes, becaiuse the performace delta is quite big and they are more "rare" so dealers can make asubmarket. But over time none of thes ecars are owned for sheer performance, and unlike a covered headlight cali spyder vs open a Testarossa and Tr are vsualy similar enough. In fact since a Testarossa does not have a fake smiley face radiator its arguably better looking.

Short medium and long view.

Long view, flying mirror.

 

This is just my theory, and I am thinking "out loud" to this community for input/criticism.

Specifically for the USA, both the Daytona and Testarossa series were Ferrari spec cars, all the BB series were not. With that backdrop, BBs were a bit of an unknown in North America save for those of us who are avowed enthusiasts. The only BBs that made it here did so as "grey market" cars and in very limited numbers and a small proportion of the overall production.

As such, there are some who are becoming collectors looking for something special who are still discovering BBs and their unique place as the first mid engine, 12 cyl Ferrari road car. Add to that the last production Ferrari with handcrafted body panels and its status as a supercar of an era that saw significant decreases in performance in the entire segment due to emissions/safety awareness and the gas crisis, and the BBs are even more of a standout in their era.

For those reasons, my theory is that the BBs have more potential buyers and that number will grow with awareness. That is in contrast to the Testarossa which was in movies, TV shows, not to mention a USA spec car that has always enjoyed widespread and awareness and appreciation.

Again, the theory only works if there are enough potential North American buyers who "discover" the BB in enough numbers to impact demand. I can tell you that almost 9 years ago when I purchased my BBi and since that time, many people who appreciate cars had no idea what a BB was/is. I don't know many people, let alone car enthusiasts, who don't know what a Testarossa is.

Thoughts?

(While writing this I read Boxerman's post, similar thoughts!)

 

I like your theory and it makes sense

Yep the BB is becoming a thing, almost like the dicovered ferrari, as opposed to an old used car. BBs now have classic staTus and are being discovered.

Starting 3-5 years ago at club drives I saw the guys with $$$, those who had old an new ferrarisl getting a BB. They also cometed on how great they were to drive compared to say a 275 or daytona.

A Bb for long distance is punishement, but as a collector car what made aBB less useable than a daytona is now an attribute. How many classic ferraris can comfortably mix it up with moderns ona sunday drive and yet stilld eliver everythign a classic ferrari does.

Look at any major collection thay all have a BB. So do boxers stabilize at 50% of daytona values or now thta BBs are being "discovered" do they come out of the daytonas shadow and follow miura prices?

Letss ee the first one to crack 500K after that its not too long a trip to 750.

Lets put it this way, if you wnat a calssic ferrari experience for 500K what other choices are there and how to they compare to a boxer.

Or for only 350k a boxer is one hell of abargain compared to a 288 which is similarily beautiful. A 288 is fatser lighter and limited prod, but in relaity for a collector driver the differences are not so huge and the boxer has 12.

 

If the total production of 512bb and 512bbi from '76 to '84 were around 2000 (please correct me if I am wrong) and all were grey market, how many total were actually imported to the U.S.?

 

I heard in the high 300's but then a bunch went back to europe when the market collapsed early 90's.

In any event as a 25yo car they can come and go now no problem.