512bbi vs. 512TR? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

512bbi vs. 512TR?

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by ttn27, Mar 11, 2015.

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  1. John B

    John B Formula 3

    May 27, 2003
    1,564
    NJ
    Some very insightful comments here.
    Even with the recent increase in BB values I think they are still very undervalued. I think it's absurd they are worth less than a Dino. Based on sheer driving pleasure and beauty I think they belong between a Daytona and a Miura.
     
  2. scudF1

    scudF1 F1 Rookie
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    +1
    The bbi not only is a better looking car than the Dino, but in my opinion you get more car and a better car for your money. They are defiantly undervalued.
     
  3. Jezter70

    Jezter70 Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2013
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    I certainly love the BB series of cars , and they are stunning to look at, but put one side by side with a Dino, as i have done ..... and it just fades away, i'm afraid .... and that goes a long way to explain the value difference, because as you rightly say the BB is leagues ahead on performance . They are both iconic cars , but only one is a true design classic.

    I think the BB deserves to be ahead of the 512TR in the long term , however the 512TR has such presence and visual impact ..... far more than the BB, it has to be said, therefore i can understand the children of the 70's and 80's , now driving this particular market onwards.

    BR,
    Jez
     
  4. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    i am at amelia island, and as you might imagine there are plenty of cars here for show and sale.
    for once, there are virtually no dinos to be seen. but there are plenty of bb's with big price tags and getting lots of attention.

    this is only anecdotal, but looks like bb's are continuing their ascendency and may have become the car of the moment.
     
  5. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie

    Jan 19, 2014
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    There were more Dinos than BBs. Each auction house had at least two. They did well based on condition, etc.

    The BBs all did well despite their condition.
     
  6. scudF1

    scudF1 F1 Rookie
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    BBis can only appreciate.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  7. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    my comment was about what i saw parked in the public areas since i never made it to either auction.
     
  8. MoeD

    MoeD Formula 3
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    Aug 1, 2007
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    You guys have made some Great points that hadn't crossed my mind

    Thanks to the bunch of you

    I'm wondeirng what values BB's and 512TR's are doing at Amelia

    Anyone have any data?
     
  9. MoeD

    MoeD Formula 3
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    The re-indexing concept is something of which we've all been aware, but probably never consciously thought about- In my case at least

    Who can tell how the chips will fall? But intuition and a keen watch on the market can allow us to recognize these sorts of turn of events.

    ;)
     
  10. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    I think if you are into cars, just buy really good cool ones, sooner or later that market catches on.

    The current z28 maybe it takes 20 or more years but its a winner, we just wont see its likes again, somehtign so big dramatic, na and hard.

    For less expesive ferraris the ones imo that are still cheap and will apreciate;
    As much a people slag off mondials, a mondi T is pretty special, has a great motor and drives great, fits that classic mold in terms of experience,and still really really cheap. 355's once people figure out how to make them run without robbing a bank, a stick 355 is the last of the real he man ferraris.

    400's and 412's are starting to get some play, yeah they are a 2+2 but a stick one, it has a daytona motor, thats something special. Autos are dogs.
    456's one day will have their day, they are just too beutiful.

    550s are where boxers were 25 years ago, but they are sort of more Gt than sportscar to drive so wont quite have the iconic status and cant go as far, still a V12 and a stick is a formula you cant find anymore in new cars.

    Speaking of which a stick v12 vantage aston has everything going for it, a great name(aston)arguably the most beautiful shape of this century, a v12 that sounds like ripping canvas and a stick, plus really limited prod. One day when peopel figure this out it will go stratospheric.

    Nice thing, none of the cars on my list break the bank to buy, get one and enjoy it for a decade or two cash in and be complimented for your taste.
     
  11. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2014
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    A reminder of numbers (it's about supply as well as demand, no?)

    Total factory production
    206 GT: 152
    246 GT: 2487
    246 GTS: 1274
    365 BB: 387
    512 BB: 929
    512BBi: 1007
    Testa: 7177
    412 Man/Auto: 270/306
    512 TR: 2280
    512 M: 501

    And:
    Mondial QV Cabrio: 629 (reality check)
     
  12. archibald drinkwater

    Aug 31, 2009
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    patrick f.
    #37 archibald drinkwater, Mar 17, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2015
    the BBs are a better investment than a 512TR.... it is debatable yes, but the production numbers will be a factor. also, is everyone just conveniently forgetting that the 512TR is really just a testarossa ? an evolution, but a later version of the testarossa.... they are popular for various reasons, but my money on collectible testarossa's will be on the early high single mirror cars. (even though i bought a 1990) it is rare that later updated versions are more coveted than the earliest versions. personally i really don't like the smiley mouth grill of the 512TR and the painted lower skirts. and i think the 512M front end is super ugly, even though it is the most valuable TR. perhaps the question should be which will be more valuable the BB or the M ? also, for the record.... the only reason i really bought a testarossa is because i couldn't / didn't want to pay all the money for a BB, but i wanted a 12 cylinder ferrari mid-engine... so there's that.
     
  13. southnc

    southnc Formula 3

    Dec 25, 2013
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    #38 southnc, Mar 17, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2015
    The answer depends on your goal - is it which is the best car for an enthusiast or which is best for financial gain?

    I owned a Boxer for several years and also drove the TRs quite a bit.

    The were about 2500+ Boxers (365 GT4 BB, 512 BB, and 512 BBi). There are several thousand TRs and a couple thousand 512 TRs, and even fewer 512Ms.

    Of all these cars, the 512 TR (and 512 M) is by far the best car in term of performance. In fact, although it looks like a plain TR, many believe the 512 TR/M are a completely different car - a much better car.

    Of the Boxers, the the carbureted versions were the best. The injected (BBi) was the heaviest and least powerful. The 365 was known for over-heating in traffic conditions, but could be remedied with the appropriate mods. Regardless, the 365 is the Boxer to get.

    Since all Boxers are grey market, many were grotesquely modified (especially the bumpers) to meet US standards. Mine had a minor change which I had restored to original condition. You also need to check on what emissions updates were done, since Boxers didn't come with any.

    The Boxers are edgier cars, but the TR / 512 TR / 512 M are much better performance wise.

    All of these cars are heavy and ponderous on a track. I tracked my Boxer (512 BBi) at Road Atlanta once and felt like I was in a pickup truck, as compared to the 355s at the time.

    If your just looking to store the car to make money some day, I guess one of the carbureted Boxers or the 512M would be the better choice.

    From an enthusiast's perspective, get a plain TR and save your money. Then get one of the modern Ferraris that will run circles around any of these cars.

    Good luck.
     
  14. Capt. Rich

    Capt. Rich Karting

    Jun 9, 2008
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    Look at Ferrari Market Letter and Ferrari Bulletin from the late 80's for the asking prices for BBs and Testarosas. I think history does repeat.
     
  15. Jezter70

    Jezter70 Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2013
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    Very good point Darius, ......and perhaps the Mondial QV cabrio should now really be fetching more, than a 308 GTB Vetroresina ? We had better jump in , before everyone realises! I wonder how long it will be before some dodgy dealer, tries this one out?
    BR,
    Jez
     
  16. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    numbers only start to matter once people want the car in greater numbers than the car exists.

    there are plenty of low volume cars that nobody wants, and they are not appreciating now, or ever.
     
  17. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
    2,772
    When you see a Boxer, you just stop and stare.

    When you open that rear clamshell, and gaze at that motor - - - - Got a cigarette? :)
     
  18. lear60man

    lear60man Formula 3

    May 29, 2004
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    Can you post up some numbers for those of us who only had a poster of a TR back in the 80's?
     
  19. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2014
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    Well yes, that was exactly my point with regard to this thread. In a hypothetical situation where all else is equal, if exactly the same number of people crave any BB as crave any Testa/TR/M, there are roughly 5 x as many of the latter category. Gotta make a difference.

    Whether the M and 365 are micro-markets of their own, interesting q?
     
  20. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    i think it is a mistake to take all of the testas together, and compare them with all of the bb's.

    this is just my opinion, but let me explain.
    the first testas are flawed in many small ways, but were made in large numbers since they hit the market with such force since there had not been a mid engine 12 cylinder officially imported to the usa for more than a decade prior to that.
    the 512tr rectified the faults, and improved nearly every aspect of the car, including the shape.
    the 512m was a marketing exercise to use up the remaining body shells and parts, and threw in a couple mechanical tweaks.

    most people who desire this shape, and have the means, gravitate towards the 512tr, and if they have even more money, and can stand the shape, move on to the 512m.

    the bb's
    the 365 is very flawed. the design was a hit, but ferrari knew it needed help, so the run was small. it is only perhaps more valuable because of being the first, but otherwise the shape and look (6 tailpipes aside) is basically the same as the subsequent models.
    the 512bb and bbi are nearly identical other than carbs/injectors.

    so more/less the full bb run attracts mostly the same buyers, they all want that shape and they differ in wallet size and perhaps some claimed appreciation of subtle shape differences.

    the point i am trying to make, is that all the bb's should be compared to the 512tr and m, as a group. in other words, almost the same build numbers.
     
  21. jjmalez

    jjmalez F1 Veteran
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    Ferrari Market Letter. Volume 14 Number 25. 9 December 1989

    512 BBi, S/N 51747 (1984). Red with tan interior and tan dash. Beautiful. 1,640 miles. $400,000
    Walnut Creek Ferrari, 415-947-XXXX

    512 BBi, S/N 45615 (1983). Silver with cream and blue interior. Special factory ordered paint and interior. All original, concourse winner. 6,000 plus miles. $325,000
    516-329-XXXX (NY)
     
  22. suicidedoors1964

    suicidedoors1964 Formula Junior

    Oct 2, 2004
    385
    So basically Boxers have returned to 1989 prices not considering inflation. Looks like Boxers could easily go to 750k if inflation means anything.

    $400,000.00 in 1989 had the same buying power as $779,458.92 in 2015.

    Annual inflation over this period was 2.60%.


     
  23. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Course we need a 89 style car price bubble to get to 700k now. The value of money difference would indicate car prices not yet bubble.
     
  24. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    I am not sure "collectors" figure mechanical flaws as factors for earlier vs later models, given limited use. Performance jumps and rarity are a factor. Thats why a 365 Bb sells at a premium, its shorter gearing makes if feel fatser, its lighter and more rare. Some say a 512BB is faster than a BBI, seems the power is just in a different place. BBIs get some negative comment not being carbed, but then they make up for it by being so useable, and you can still find a really goog unrestored BBI. The value delta from earliest to last versions seems to be not more than 10%.

    Countaches by contrast have afar wider spread, but then the lp400 is so different stylisticaly from say a 25 anniv. My pick would be 48V Downdraft no wing.

    In Tr land to me the origional is best stylisticaly, the smiley face on the Tr and differences in the rear make it less pure. But there is a big performance jump to aTR. The M is to me hideous looking lik a poor kit car, but had an exceptional motor by any standard, somehting really special, and is rare.

    My pic is an origional Tr with a M motor, since I have the motor anyone know of a dead Tr good body not too expensive?
     
  25. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
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    Balls.

    It has its faults, but a good 365BB is a great car, and certainly more entertaining than a 512BB or BBi because of its peakier engine and shorter gears. It is not built for doing standing starts, and it can't keep the oil temperature down if you run it on a track (not that the 512's can either, but they are better at it), but as a driving tool on public roads it is a fantastic machine. Some of the changes in the 512BB were done to make the 365BB more driveable and more comfortable (larger engine, more torque, twin-plate clutch), but although the engine is more tractable it is certainly not an improvement on all fronts. And through that process the wonderful pitbull nature of the 365BB was if not lost, then certainly much diluted. Drive a 365BB properly and it will give you a buzz a 512BB just cannot give you. But very few people have been privileged enough to experience one the way it was meant to be driven. Especially one that was in great shape. So it is easy to just pronounce it "flawed" and skip over it. But it truly is a gem of a car. I miss mine dearly.

    I have driven all Boxers and I love all of them. My personal preference is the 365BB, but I truly love all of them for different reasons. Stop aping the books and find out for yourself what the true story is. It's always more subtle and interesting than you think.


    Onno
     

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