512M vs 512TR power difference - ECU, cams... | FerrariChat

512M vs 512TR power difference - ECU, cams...

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by ants2au, Nov 22, 2023.

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  1. ants2au

    ants2au Formula Junior

    Nov 19, 2003
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    Anthony
    Hi,
    thought Id start a thread to determine the exact nature of how the 512M makes its extra power.
    yes I get that it has Ti conrods, which allows it to rev higher, but is that it?

    are the cams different?
    does the ECU have a different program in the eprom? I am presuming both use the 2.7 bosch

    I was a position a while ago to do a comparison between a stock 2.7 348 eprom and an aftermarket one (eprom read level).

    hoping someone has done that between the 512TR and M.. maybe..
     
  2. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #2 Rifledriver, Nov 22, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2023
    The titanium rods are not to allow it to rev higher. They have the same redline. They were to reduce reciprocating weight only.

    Very little difference between the motors. The titanium rods made possible reducing the crankshaft weight. The compression is just a little higher and the base model has a different ignition box. No 2 cars of the same model perform exactly the same. Some are better than others. I have driven 512s and Ms back to back. There is very little difference for all the hoopla. It was the impression of the guys I worked with at the time, and we all drove them regularly that an M performed within the window of a standard 512. A good running 512.

    The specifications are all easily found with a simple perusal of the parts books. No need at all to fire up the internet wives tale machine.
     
    sherrillt, greg328 and ants2au like this.
  3. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    The M engine has different cams, compression increase as already mentioned, the crank is lighter (rod and crank combined weight is 19 lbs lighter than the TR). The M crank is easily identified by what looks like a double bolt pattern where the flywheel mounts to it. The additional holes are not threaded, further weight reduction is my assumption. 20 more HP than the TR.
     
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  4. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
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    So basically not much difference! Do you plan to race someone?
     
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  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Cams are exactly the same. Valve timing is exactly the same.

    And I bet there is more than 20hp difference between TR motors anyway.
     
  6. ants2au

    ants2au Formula Junior

    Nov 19, 2003
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    Anthony
    and the ECUs are the same? same mappings?
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I answered that already.
     
  8. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    I remember reading that the cams were different when I bought those crate engines 10+ years ago.
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Same part numbers, same timing specs.

    Ferrari always made them sound very special when there was in reality very little difference. That led to a lot or rumors about performance.
    Driven back to back which I did many times and you cant tell. I had one as a regular client for years.
     
  10. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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  11. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I have a factory dyno report on a 360. It was 360HP. Supposed to be 400. Ferrari lies. They always have. According to a few I knew at the factory the only engines Ferrari made that that made made advertised power on the dyno was the F40 and the US versions made more than advertised power.
     
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  12. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    This is not relevant to this conversation, but the factory published BHP numbers were pretty accurate up into the early 1960s, then the advertising department took over.
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Thats true. I was thinking really of post Enzo era. I have also been told comp engine figures were typically correct.
     
  14. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Brian: I understood your period of reference. As for comp engines, I agree. At least in the pre-1980 timeframe, we get similar dyno results to the original factory numbers for competition car motors.
     
  15. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Yes Ferrari lies about hp, the speedos are generous and for some magical reason a Fiat engine in a Dino makes more hp than the same engine when mounted in a Fiat.
     
  16. ants2au

    ants2au Formula Junior

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    I do concur regarding the Speedo.
    I got one of those speedo corrector circuits, to make it match the GPS, or close enough.
     
  17. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    the 512m vs 512tr debate has been going on since 1995.
    to me it is also evidence of the greater fool theory.....ferrari took the 500 leftovers they were having a hard time selling, added about a pound of titanium, a big dose of ugliness and a bigger price tag, and people have been jacking it up ever since.
    the good news is that if you actually like to look at your car without smirking or gagging, you can buy a 512tr for half the cost of an M and have exactly the same performance. :)
     
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  18. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    You can buy an M for the same price as a 512TR in the US and have a better and more rare car :)

    You could also buy a Testarossa for half price and have a classier car.
     
  19. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    a quick look at the auction price comparison over the last several years will deny your first statement. ;)
    and then the testarossa vs 512tr performance comparison casts shade on your second statement. :)
     
  20. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Veteran

    Jan 21, 2017
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    The 512TR actually corrected the flaws of the initial testarossa (and added some power, but that was not the most important), whereas the F512M is now valued mostly for its rarity.
     
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  21. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    That's why I wrote "same price as a 512TR in the US". The cars being flipped for a profit must come from somewhere.
    On that note, you could argue Bat results show many are averse to search engines and find imaginary borders comforting.


    Is it double the car? No. Is the Testarossa better than the Boxer? It also "corrected" the BB's "flaws".

    In the end one's not necessarily better than the other - irrespective of cost, some would prefer the 365BB over the 512BB, the TR over the 512TR, the 512TR over the 512M, and vice versa.

    Now, some of the prices for 355's and 328's. Who, what, why ... but I digress.
     
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  22. rumen1

    rumen1 Formula 3
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    Actually only for its rarity.
     
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  23. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    you missed ALL the smileys.

    lighten up francis :)
     
  24. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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