512TR starter problem(s)

Two weeks ago I wanted to get home but the 512TR would not start … thought is was a small problem …. It was not ….
Took out the starter and brought it to my local refurbisher, asking for another starter for my car.
He searched the Internet and in the whole of The Netherlands, there was no other 512TR starter anywhere.
Decide to do three things: get another starter as spare, had my electro guy refurbish this one and have a look at the electric system ….
He stated that by seeing the complete damage inside the starter that the starter had been working continuously and was broken by the revs of the flywheel.
In other words, it had been activated durig running engine which is deadly for a starter. Could hardly believe him but kept it very well in my ears.
Starter was repaired for only € 150 +VAT; one can overcome that imo. But trying it, I heared noises that should not be there, I did not rev the engine and shut her down.
Took a signal lamp to check the wire that starts the starter. Expected NO current at all …. But there was current. Not much but up to one volt .
And when I engaged the starterkey, 12 volt immediately kept coming on that wire …
So there was definitively something wrong … but where ?
Took of the steeringcolumncovers to find the wire of the lock that activates the starter and found it: a thick white one (NOT the white/red one in front).
Also found it in the fusebox in the lower left connector. Took it out of the connector and used my voltmeter.
The fault was not here in the white cable (!), the signal was as should be: noting until key in the lock is activated.
So after long thinking, testing and searching there could be only one fault: it must be in the fusebox.
Decided to make a new wire from Fusebox to the starter. Connected the new wire directly to the white wire from the lock.
Took quite some time to do that nicely (used existing feed-through place of the Ecu's).
A nice "tool" I made was an old spare car waterpump instead of the control lamp: it squeeks if there is contact !
Also did make a relay extra near the starter solenoid; I know all discussions but believe it will stay fine this way.

So: the problem in the fusebox not found or solved, fault is not noticeable anymore. Spare starter is now always with me in the car
It was not the starter itself that was wrong; it was not the starterkey /lock (which was assumed) but something in the fusebox.
Solved in two days .... photos to document this all IF this happens to you
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

thanks mel for sharing this experience to us all
hopefully the mistake in the fusebox will not grow

 

Im confused.

Are you saying that the fusebox will send 12V to the starter for no reason?

What is this pic of the relay near your motor? Could this extra relay be why you are getting the voltage at the starter with no signal? (this is the part that seems suspect to me)

 

No confusion Tim ....

The 12v signal from the key/lock gives 12v on the white wire only if actuated (checked with volt meter).

The oem wire gives 12 v all the time at the startermotor if lock was activated
(and if not actuated up to 1 volt constantly, all checked in the enginebay with volt meter).

My conclusion is that between the white wire and starter somewhere 12 volt is added .... so in the FB is most likely ...

New wire was my solution ... all tests were now faultless, (with no extra relais at that time yet).

The relay in the back was not needed at all but I made it only NOT to extract lots of 12v from the white wire in front ...

Is this correctly explaned, I mean is that so explained well ?

 

I totally understand mel
the easiest way to fix this problem

 

Did you try to bypass the fusebox first as Steve did on a previous starter problem post?

 

Joseph, could not find the wire from FB to starter (time ) .... so by making a new wire, I also bypassed the fusebox.

Can you please give me the link to that thread from Steve please ?

It seems to happen more often in the 512TR then ... interesting ... ?

Anyone here with more info about it ??? Share please ....

 

Mel,
Did your burned starter look the same as Jim's in this post?

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/boxers-tr-m/444456-starter-toast.html

 

Is there anyway that your "extra" relay was supplying the 12V?

In a sense, I think that the starter by itself is a relay and do not understand why these get added. Those major wires coming straight from the battery to the starter are just waiting for a signal from the key. I think that many of the "no start" problems are from breaks in the signaling circuit.

If your post is trying to help others....can you trace the entire circuit?


I have NEVER seen anyone do this. I'm still not convinced it's your fusebox....unless those laminated stacked circuit boards (common to all TRs ) are shorting.

So let's start?

On the signal circuit ...12v battery.....goes to the fusebox...now what?

12v out of box via which wire?....then to key? Leaves the key and goes where?


The final termination is the harness next to the driver side air box....then finally to the starter. (I pictured in in the last starter post)

 

You will never get "lots". It's only a signal to the starter. The starter gets the "lots" from the other connections to the starter. This is why I said earlier that the starter functions like a relay.

 

I do understand Tim ! Made that extra relais just and only to avoid any "extra current" through that white wire

 

I found the white 12v getting back to the FB, but did not feel happy to search for the 12 volt wire to the starter.

I am sure the fault is somewhere in the FB, how would I detect that then ?

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/boxers-tr-m/418202-starter-circuit-problems.html

 

Thanx Joseph, I seem NOT to be the only 512TR guy having this problem. Just had not seen this thread ...

Anyway, my problem is solved, almost the same way ...

Thanx 4 sharing !

 

Mel, I had the same problem with a short in the fusebox bleeding current to the relay I placed at the starter solenoid in "run" position of the key, therefore starter stayed engaged, frying the starter. I put the relay at the starter solenoid because I was getting a weak signal from the key circuit in "start" position. The relay worked fine for 30K+ miles and was NOT the problem.

Power goes to the key switch and, in "start" key position 12 V goes to the fusebox via the white wire (I believe position 1 on the "I" connector) IIRC. The current then runs through the circuit board and out the white wire on the "F" connector (again position 1). There is no stock relay in the circuit, so I did not know why Ferrari ran this through the fusebox. I created a "jumper" wire, took both white wires from connectors "I' and "F" and hooked them together. Voila, the starter jumped to life every time.

One problem, though - I had no wipers, turn signals, AC. It seems the white wire from the key must be present in the "I" connector to ground these circuits. Right now I have the white wire present in the "I" connector and a jumper wire going from that wire (spliced) to the white wire from the "F" connector, which is removed from the connector. Everything works fine, except the started does not crank when the engine is hot. A jumper from the positive terminal on the starter motor and she roars to life. And the entire starter is brand new and all connections are clean.

Somewhere in that circuit, voltage is being lost, and I suspect it is in the connections to the "starter-kill" wires on the alarm. These will be soon removed and the circuit continuity restored, and hopefull problem solved.

A second fix is to place a relay at the starter connected to a starter (momentary on) button hidden in the driver's compartment.. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

Can you please follow the wire from the starter signal wire to the closest connector that is in the engine compartment? I posted this on another starter thread with a picture on my 512tr.

Here is why I think this is your problem. You state that the car will not start when it gets hot. That connector sees heat too. If this causes a bad connection and high resistance, your starter will not see the 12V signal from your key.

Have you found this connection and cleaned it already? (I posted a pic of it already)

Start in the engine compartment and forget the fusebox.

 

Did you check the relay that is under the dash?

 

Seems like connector 41019 or relay S would cause problems with the starter circuit
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Pic 2
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Trying to make sense of this circuit and get to the root of the starter problems.

It looks like the starter signal from the key goes through the I connector...BUT ...does 2 things.
1) it signals the starter to fire (by exiting through the F connector)
2) closing the S relay that allows for the windscreen piper, stop lamps, directional signals, and allows current to go to relay G which controls the AC.

This is why you cannot jump I straight to F.


So if you follow the path of the circuit you should get
1) 12 V coming out of the J connector which goes straight to the key
2)12V coming out of the key start position ( white wire)
3) 12V entering the fusebox at the I connector
4) 12 V leaving the fusebox at the F connector

These connectors at the fusebox are terrible. But the good news is that this circuit is only a signal. This is not a high AMP circuit that damages the fusebox. It is only a signal.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

So, the next time your 512tr wont start....check for 12V here first. Dont care if your car is hot or cold. If you don't get a 12V here, then your starter can not fire.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Then go to this harness... and check for 12V
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Which is here on the schematic. It is a 9 pin harness.

I think this will be most of your problem and here is why.....
1) it gets disconnected every time your motor is serviced
2) water will always fall right on top of it
3) it gets a lot of heat
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Oh...and did I mention that the 512m used a different connector here? Known problem?

 

Mel, I noticed you have the Bosch starter for your 512TR. I mistakenly bought the WAI upgraded solenoid, but my car has the Nippon unit. If you want this solenoid, I would be happy to sned it off to Europe for only the cost of the postage. Your help in this forum has repaid me many times over. Send me a PM if you want it.