550 engine cooling improved! | Page 3 | FerrariChat

550 engine cooling improved!

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by AVIMAX, May 26, 2020.

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  1. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2010
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    Erik
    I see the bottom number is the voltage. What exsctly is the top number?

    The new fans and new separate wiring is a MUST for ALLLLLL 456/550s! Probably also 575Ms too...
     
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  2. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    Proper radiator ducting at the front (sealing the front radiator intake to the radiator properly) would also be a big help. This means no air can escape and find an easier path (i.e. not through the radiator). Even better would be adding radiator exit ducting but with no louvres in the bonnet/hood this would be hard to do.

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  3. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Erik- My 575M has no overheating issues, even in the high desert or in the US humid Southeast. Changing coolant every two years definitely helps the system operate efficiently.
     
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  4. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2014
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    575 does not have the same fuse/relay board as the 456 and 550, I think that is a real weak point for many systems in the car that was fixed with the 575. In a 456 or 550, I think moving the power for the fans off the fuseboard does a lot to improve the effectiveness of the fans.
     
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  5. Mirek

    Mirek Formula 3
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    My new fans were each wired up independently and off the fuse board obviously, not sure of the specifics on that or how that works but the output more than doubled I was informed.
    Picking up the car today.

    (Oh yea, the top number on that tool illustrates air flow, It may have been a comparison of my original fans and not a before/after as I assumed — I will find out when I pick up the car.)
     
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  6. Timmo

    Timmo Formula Junior

    Aug 26, 2017
    383
    Continental Europe
    Interesting topic. Many thanks to all the posters for their personal feedback.
    May I ask if all of you who have made the aforementioned modifications were/are still running the original fuseboard?

    I have just had a closer look at my 2000 550 which seems to still run on its original fans and I have never had coolant temp go above 90°C (middle of the gauge), even in the very hot weather of this particularly intense Summer. The only mod there is a fuseboard from Guido Theunissen which I installed a few months after purchasing it, in March IIRC. The relays for the fans do get warm when driving in town but not any worse than with the original fuseboard, and again, the coolant temp gauge has never exceeded 90°C.
     
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  7. maranello72

    maranello72 Formula Junior

    Jul 4, 2009
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    I am still running with the original fuse board. I agree that it is a weak point. The copper traces are too thin to carry the high currents required by the fans. As a result the board heats up considerably and tends to deform, also damaging the terminals in the process. The voltage drop along the circuit causes the fans to spin slower than they should. The original fans are up to the task, they just need a good power supply!

    Stefano
     
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  8. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2014
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    When I did the fan upgrade 2 years ago, I was using the original fuseboard. This summer I installed one of Guido's boards and put the original away as a spare.
     
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  9. Mirek

    Mirek Formula 3
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    Done. Works great, the car does not even stay at 190 in whilst in traffic, 86 degrees with the A/C on full. Finally.

    These fans are MUCH quieter than stockers which stinks as I liked the loudness of the others and was hoping they would still be loud. Cannot really hear them now.

    They used two 30 amp fuses positioned thusly at the battery. Lots of room between the low profile fans to work too. This was a pricey job I will say but well worth it !!





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  10. Mirek

    Mirek Formula 3
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    Well, like everyone else I will now recommend going to 40 amp fuses. Lesson learned.

    Actually bought them last night and called my mechanic this AM — but was talked out of it !

    2 miles later…melted fuse.
     
  11. Aerosurfer

    Aerosurfer Formula 3
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    Bummer to hear hopefully the fuse holders are rated for higher fuses and wiring wasn’t under gauged.

    Between @AVIMAX ’s posts and schematic on page 1 of this thread and an old Thread by @Cribbj here


    Fusebox repair post #45

    The clarity of how the wiring should go and what to use is becoming clearer to make this a clean and mostly hidden upgrade.
     
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  12. Mirek

    Mirek Formula 3
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    I thought I had read everything but somehow missed that ! I always defer to trust the wrench and he seemed confident outside of having the fuse blown but maybe he will find something else now.

    The one fuse was blown and seemed to have a white “wax” like substance in/outside of it.

    Had to quick-fast park it on a side street right off Vine here in Hollywood as it was HOT and then jog to my daughters school for pick-up !

    Made it on time. They are going to review and rectify tomorrow. I am assuming this will be primarily 40 amp fuses haha…
     
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  13. Aerosurfer

    Aerosurfer Formula 3
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    Are you back on the road yet with the higher fuse or do your trials and tribulations continue?
     
  14. Mirek

    Mirek Formula 3
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    Funny that you mentioned the fuse holders. That was evidently at faulty (or also failed). If i recall correctly the plan is now replace all the wire with 10 gage and use 40 amp fuses. In the meantime, I was kindly provided with a SWEET 1979 Rolls Royce to enjoy. Will report back.

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  15. maranello72

    maranello72 Formula Junior

    Jul 4, 2009
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    On my 1999 550, 40A fuses were standard. Even the sticker on the fuse panel indicates 40A fuses for the fans!
     
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  16. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

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    Boy do I fell like a dummy now! I just checked my car and sure enough the fuse panel calls out 40A for the fans and the fuses in the board are 40A. How did I come to the conclusion that the fans use 30A? Another case of the WSM not being accurate. I checked and the WSM calls out 30A, so I must have been going by the WSM when I did the wiring and fans 2 years ago. Like I said, I feel kind of dumb for not actually checking the fuse board at the time. Oh well.

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  17. Aerosurfer

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    #67 Aerosurfer, Sep 23, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
    What wiring size is everyone using? I'm putting together parts now for this project, relays and wiring. I have also upgraded the Fuseboard from Guido.

    My technical electrical knowledge is reaching its limits here. I see 40A relays referenced, but @Cribbj make an argument for the 70A relay in the other thread. Whats the actual difference in rating and whats it doing to the electrical system as the fans cycle on and off?

    40A rated inline fuse holders seem to be sold with 10AWG wiring (standard ATC blade fuses). Isnt that reaching the carrying limits of the smaller guage wire? I had 2 different inline fuse holders already in my electrical drawer, both with 30A max labels on them and 12AWG wire. Its being recommended using 12AWG. @Mirek has found this out. Is that ok because of transient vs sustained power needs of the fan. Shouldn't I just run 10AWG from battery/fuse holder to the 30 spot on the relay and use 12AWG for all the other outputs and connections? Or does it simply not matter where I step down the wiring size after the fuse? The fans themselves look like 12 guage wiring already as well as the fuse box. Ferrari certainly didn’t distribute 10 guage wiring from the box.
     
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  18. Mirek

    Mirek Formula 3
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    #68 Mirek, Sep 23, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
    Just as a side note, there is an older thread where it was postulated by a credible source that the factory upped the amperage from 30 to 40 on those fuses somewhere along the line in production for the 550/575.

    Good idea to gather all that data ! I will report back everything learned with my prior set-up and current.
    “current”….haha, get it !?

    if anybody wants me to ask the shop a very specific question please let me know, I hope to pick it up and I KNOW he wants to get it right so it should be overdone if anything.

    3 years, 3 shops (each with a shop come back) and $6k so far counting trying to chase this cooling fix down with the best independents in LA. This repair is the FINAL FIX. I hope.
     
  19. Mirek

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    #69 Mirek, Sep 23, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
    Ok, here is the deal on what happened:

    @Aerosurfer you were SPOT ON with your point about the fuse holder, it melted. The fuse itself did not even pop, the holder melted it and around it. Evidently wires carry heat along with electricity. Look closely at the pic in my last post, I just noticed you can see it melting !

    To be safe, he used 10 gauge wire throughout this time. He then routed all the wire away from all sources of heat/engine and then under that removable wheel cover en route to the battery. We used 40amp fuses for extra security and upgraded those holders too.

    Worked perfectly on the way home and I feel confident in the work !



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  20. ixlr8

    ixlr8 Formula Junior

    Aug 24, 2015
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    I'm late to this party and I apologize if this has been covered before. Has anybody measured the current draw of a stock fan in good condition? Online charts show that a 30amp circuit needs 10ga wire and a 40 amp circuit needs 8ga wire. I'm guessing since Mirek's prior setup melted the fuse holder and didn't pop the 30 amp fuse, that at least his fans draw less than 30 amps. For his setup, 10ga wire should be good enough. Need to know actual draw of the factory fans to know what size wire/fuse to use.
    Having said that, 10ga wire should be protected with a 30 amp fuse not a 40 amp fuse. If you are going to run a 40amp fuse, you should be using 8 ga wiring.
    Fuses are to protect the wiring, not the device at the end of the wire.
     
  21. maranello72

    maranello72 Formula Junior

    Jul 4, 2009
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    I need to correct myself here, the cable from the positive bus to the relay is 10 AWG, with an integrated ATC fuse holder.
     
  22. maranello72

    maranello72 Formula Junior

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    [QUOTE="My technical electrical knowledge is reaching its limits here. I see 40A relays referenced, but @Cribbj make an argument for the 70A relay in the other thread. Whats the actual difference in rating and whats it doing to the electrical system as the fans cycle on and off?[/QUOTE]
    The 70A relays have a slightly lower coil resistance than the stock 30A relays. They therefore draw slightly more current from the circuit that is driving them.
    If you connect the relays to the fuse board directly, the driving circuit is the A/C ECU. This ECU will not be damaged by the slightly higher current draw, but the relay MUST have a resistor or diode across its coil to avoid voltage spikes that could indeed fry the ECU.
    If you install the relays in the engine bay and use the signal from the stock relays to drive them, you don't need ones with a resistor or diode.
    70Amp relays have 9.5mm faston terminals as opposed to the 6.3mm of the stock 30Amp relays. The actual relay contacts are also larger. As contact resistance is lower, they will produce less heat and less voltage drop.
    The fans draw 20/25A (original/upgraded) and this is a lot for a 6.3mm faston terminal, this is why I went for the 70A relay!
     
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  23. Mirek

    Mirek Formula 3
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    My new SPAL fans each drew considerably less than 20A when it was all said and done. That was my understanding at least. We looked at everything. The under hood heat measurements were much higher than we both thought (even up by the battery on the engine side) and routing the wires is more important than anything it seems. Or at least a critical part.
     
  24. Aerosurfer

    Aerosurfer Formula 3
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    The 70A relays have a slightly lower coil resistance than the stock 30A relays. They therefore draw slightly more current from the circuit that is driving them.
    If you connect the relays to the fuse board directly, the driving circuit is the A/C ECU. This ECU will not be damaged by the slightly higher current draw, but the relay MUST have a resistor or diode across its coil to avoid voltage spikes that could indeed fry the ECU.
    If you install the relays in the engine bay and use the signal from the stock relays to drive them, you don't need ones with a resistor or diode.
    70Amp relays have 9.5mm faston terminals as opposed to the 6.3mm of the stock 30Amp relays. The actual relay contacts are also larger. As contact resistance is lower, they will produce less heat and less voltage drop.
    The fans draw 20/25A (original/upgraded) and this is a lot for a 6.3mm faston terminal, this is why I went for the 70A relay![/QUOTE]

    Thank you! Appreciate the time you took to write this out and in good terms
     
  25. Mirek

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    Why would you ever not just use the OE signal from stock relay? There is almost no draw to that (in my limited understanding) and it is not a known failure point. Why get into that ? Curious.
     

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