News

550 LED light conversion

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by cwwhk, Apr 3, 2012.

  1. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    Yes, just pry carefully with a screwdriver. There is a tab on one side so gently push it in to assist removal without breaking it.
     
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #27 cwwhk, Apr 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I just did the most trivial lights on the car: vanity mirror lights. As it turned out it also required the most modification to the LED light. OEM is an odd size 6mmx36mm festoon type bulb x 4 pc. I bought some 10mmx36mm festoon LED lights, see picture 1.

    Ground them down to 6mm width and soldered copper wiring at the ends to act as the caps, see picture 2.

    Installed it in the socket. It points sideways and reflect off a chrome foil to direct light to the face, see picture 3.

    Picture 4 shows LED on the left and OEM on the right.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  4. maranello72

    maranello72 Formula Junior

    Jul 4, 2009
    331
    Munich, Germany
    Full Name:
    Stefano
    Did you actually manage to remove it from inside the glovebox? I just can't do it no matter how hard I pry... I'm ashamed of getting stuck on such a trivial task....
     
  5. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #29 cwwhk, Apr 20, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2012
    Yes, I did remove it from the glove box. It was not easy and took a bit more force than I thought was necessary. After I pry open about 5mm it did not seem to want to go any further. Instead of prying much harder to get it out, that's when I pushed in the tab on the side and pry at the same time. OK maybe I shouldn't have said gently push in the tab in my previous post. What I really meant is carefully push in the tab and pry at the same time. Then it came out. As I recall the light was also offset a little from the plastic lens so you kind of have to slide it out at an oblique angle after you pried it loose.
     
  6. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #30 cwwhk, Apr 23, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2012
    Please ignore my posts 18 and 24. That is the incorrect method of fixing the fast flash rate.

    I did further research and found out the correct approach is to keep the OEM timing resister at 100KΩ and alter only the shunt resister value. This will give correct 88 flash/minute while retaining burnt LED bulb fast flash warning function.

    According to the data sheet of timer chip U2044B, OEM shunt resister is 30mΩ set to detect less than 2.7A indicating a burnt 21W incandescent bulb and trigger double flash speed. I calculated the new shunt resister value should be about 220mΩ to detect less than 0.37A indicating a burnt front or rear LED turn signal light. Tried it and LED flash speed is now normal 88/min, but it did not trigger fast flash rate when I unplugged the front LED. When I unplugged both front and rear LED, then it did trigger fast flash of the side LED. OK obviously the fast flash trigger current threshold is set too low with a 220mΩ shunt resistor, but my calculation formula is exactly as per data sheet.

    Hmmm... I wondered why. As I unplugged the flasher I noticed the on board V23072 mini relay is quite warm. It turns out that little bugger's solenoid coil is drawing about 0.09A, which is insignificant for OEM 21W incandescent bulbs but is enough to skew the trigger current value for LED bulbs. I recalculated and will try 150mΩ 180mΩ tomorrow. Hope to report success at last. :D
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,720
    Amsterdam
    Your job is not yet done. Depending on what kind of resistor you used and how the circuit is fused, losing the failed bulb detection could have been the better idea, since you just made the resistor to be the weakest link. Any short in a connection or lamp holder or even replacing a bulb with a normal one will cause that resistor to light up and burn out very quickly, and no longer the fuse of that circuit. If the resistor is inside the relay case it might actually light that part up I and cause a fire in case of such a short. If there is a dedicated fuse for the blinker circuit then you can put in a smaller fuse there, or use a fireproof resistor inside the case so it burns without harm in case of a short or overcurrent situation.

    Last, what is the current going through the resistor in case of using the hazard lights? It is possible that the current draw doubles, which will quadruple the dissipation in the resistor; it needs to be able to cope with that. Good luck on the conversion. Are you going to do the instrument cluster also?
     
  9. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #32 cwwhk, Apr 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I may be wrong but I believe the shunt resistor is only for the timer chip's internal comparator pin 8 reference voltage of 81mV. Turn signal and hazard light circuits are OEM fused at 10A and 15A. So I believe if the lamps are shorted out, fuse will burn first. Two OEM 21W incandescent bulbs will draw about 3.5A total so even if OEM bulbs are put back in the power dissipated through the shunt resistor is less than 3W and I am using a 3W vitreous enamel wire wound resistor. Here is the timer chip block diagram. What do you think?

    Yes, I am thinking about doing the dash instrument back lighting, because OEM is green and I want to change to red. I switched my OEM Sony stereo to an aftermarket Sony with blue tooth iPhone and iPod support. Unfortunately the aftermarket Sony has only blue or red lighting so it does not match the OEM dash green lighting. Too many projects right now, so it will have to wait.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  10. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,720
    Amsterdam
    Interestingly I would not immediately know the reason what they are using the relay for on the board, as the VN30's there ought already be capable of switching the loads for left and right sides. Perhaps they're just using it to get the clicking sound? :)
    (possibly to choose between power sources).
    Here's the datasheet on the VN30: http://doc.chipfind.ru/html/stmicroelectronics/vn30n.html
    As for fuse sizes, if they're only for this circuit I would make them lower in value for both hazard and flashers - assuming you go to 180mΩ, I would not go higher in fuse rating than 4A for hazard and perhaps even 2A or 3A for flashers; that is only possible if the fuses only serve that purpose, of course. 4A is just what the resistor can take, 5A going through it will already produce 50% more heat in the resistor than its load rating.
    In case of a short, dynamic behavior comes into play; it depends on how the resistor behaves at such peak current relative to the fuse; it may still fail faster. Those enamel resistors are pretty good in terms of fire resistance, but can still light things around them in certain cases. Ceramic encapsulated is better, they cannot reach high exterior temps easily before failure.

    BTW, that red disc thing on the board is with 99% certainty a self-recovering fuse, you may simply want to get a 3A or 4A version of it and not worry much about the rest anymore, depending on how it's wired in.

    I know how this sounds, it is all very unlikely to occur, but engineering is about ruling out everything that can go wrong ;)
     
  11. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #34 cwwhk, Apr 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    You are probably right about the mini relay used for the clicking sound effect. In fact it's one of my low priority projects to make the clicking sound louder so I can actually hear it and not forget to cancel the turn signal. :D

    Thanks very much for the good suggestion of using lower amp circuit fuses. Yes, I agree the design should cover all possibilities however remote they might seem now as I understand dynamic currents might be quite different than steady state currents. I was a mechanical engineer in my younger days and I learned pretty quick to make designs idiot-proof as much as possible. I guess in this case I'm the idiot. :) Electronics is definitely not my forte. I'll look for a 5W resistor just to be on the super safe side. As it is now the 3W resistor has fairly reasonable air gap to other components within the flasher. See picture.

    What do you mean by self recovering fuse for the red disc? Do you mean a MOV varistor? I thought I recognized the red disc from 20 years ago when I made my own simple surge protector for my PC. Unfortunately I don't know what it's specs are. Marking on it is H 22Z2 9739. What replacement I should get assuming it fits within the flasher housing?

    Thanks in advance for your input.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #35 cwwhk, Apr 24, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
    Today I changed the shunt resistor to 150mΩ and it worked perfectly. Hazard and turn signal all at 88/min. Taking out front LED to simulate a burnt LED and flasher immediately switched to fast speed. Put the LED back in and flash rate returns to normal 88/min.

    I then left the hazard lights on for 30 minutes, all four lights means maximum normal LED current through the shunt resistor. It got warm but not hot. In fact the OEM on board mini relay feels much hotter than the shunt resistor. I'm all good to go.

    My next and final LED modification will be to to put an extra P21/5W equivalent LED in the empty OEM socket on the outside half of the inner rear light housing and wire it either as position/brake light or fog light. I am waiting to get 2 spare bulb socket housings for this mod.
     
  14. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,720
    Amsterdam
    Well it could be it is used to switch between power sources, the power for hazard is continuous by default, the power for flasher lights probably is not; it could be the relay is cleverly dual-used, as a clicking sound source as well as a power source switch.

    Unfortunately bigger is not necessarily better... :). It is though if you lower the fuse ratings at the same time.

    It is most probably what is called a PTC fuse; indeed very varistor-looking, because it uses a similar principle. These 'fuses' are however for low-voltage circuits, and are actually PTC's with an extremely strong positive resistance coefficient above a certain current or temperature. They also do not break so a current flow remains, just harmless to the rest of the circuit. For example look here:
    http://www.bourns.com/ProductLine.aspx?name=polymer_ptc_resettable_fuses_multifuse

    It can take a number of seconds to trip it though while it warms up, so whatever circuit you're protecting needs to be able to sustain that overcurrent situation a short while, which is where the dynamics come into play again; hence lowering the fuse rate to 5 amps (or 3 and 4) maximum remains the best because of that.
     
  15. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    Thanks for the info.
     
  16. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #38 cwwhk, Apr 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As per 166&456's suggestion in post #33, I replaced both the hazard and turn signal circuit fuses to 4A. Pink ones 3rd from left and last on the right. Unfortunately Littlefuse in 4A was not available in Hong Kong so had to use a generic one without the amp numbers printed on the fuse. Will order some from the US later.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  17. Playframe King

    Playframe King Formula Junior

    Jan 31, 2010
    320
    UK
    really liking this thread !! - may get to it on my 456 when I retire (again)
    thanks for sharing
     
  18. SFchallenge

    SFchallenge F1 World Champ

    Jun 28, 2004
    11,930
    Sgp, KL, HK & London
    Full Name:
    Jon Wijaya
    Wow! fantastic thread on updating your car, didn't know that there's so many versions of LEDs available by now. My only gripe is I actually like the yellowish lights in the cabin which gives a nostalgic mood vs the daylight white. Well, can't complain too much :)
     
    F456M likes this.
  19. F430addict

    F430addict F1 Rookie

    Sep 17, 2010
    4,307

    Agreed Jon! But I'm sure we can get those LEDs in warm daylight rather than ultra white which to me is kinda distracting.
     
  20. djastral69

    djastral69 Formula 3

    Aug 6, 2007
    1,858
    Fl
    Full Name:
    David
    So, I have a 360 and would changing the shunt resistor be applicable in our case as the vehicles are so similar? How do we go about doing so of so as I am changing over everything myself and would like to have this taken care of.
     
  21. Davidspop

    Davidspop Karting

    Dec 23, 2019
    210
    Full Name:
    Lance Malcolm
    Raising another thread.... I am looking to replace front and rear park, turn, brake bulbs and cannot find that a 7 pin electronic flasher has ever been developed.... anyone using such a relay? Also I think I found that the 7 pin flasher relay is the same as a BMW 750 unit.... anyone know if this one will work?

    61361388547 Wehrle
     
  22. stevepaa

    stevepaa Formula Junior

    Apr 5, 2006
    549
    san jose, ca
    Full Name:
    steve
  23. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    5,234
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Did you replace the front turn bulbs with LEDs, Steve and the dash turn indicator lights?

    It would depend on what type of LEDs you fit. The turn circuits consist of varying numbers of bulbs (including turn repeaters on EURO cars and binnacle turn indicators). The immobiliser system is also tied into the turn indication system. What works on one car may not work on another.
     
    F456M likes this.
  24. stevepaa

    stevepaa Formula Junior

    Apr 5, 2006
    549
    san jose, ca
    Full Name:
    steve
     
  25. MattH1973

    MattH1973 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2020
    32
    Full Name:
    Matthew Hunt
    i am thinking of doing a projector LED conversion, I think my headlights are currently pure OEM, Can someone describe what is involved based on today's tech - is there an LED plug and play kit ?
     
  26. ferraridriver

    ferraridriver F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 8, 2002
    4,092
    Bay Area Calif.
    Full Name:
    Dave
    If you can find them Valeo D2S projectors from Audi's vintage circa 2000 are a direct fit. You will need ballast/ignitors.
    You want 2.5 inch lens, non bi-xenon
    Another avenue is Morimoto projectors
    You will want separate fused relays off the fuse board triggered by the relay on the fuse board.
    Visit The Retrofit Source | The Best Brands in Automotive Lighting
     
    F456M likes this.
  27. m5shiv

    m5shiv Formula 3
    BANNED

    Feb 25, 2013
    1,259
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    Shiv
    Dave,

    That site only shows F355... Any other links ?

    Thanks.
     

Share This Page