News

550 oil filter interchange?

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by fatbillybob, Mar 28, 2009.

  1. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,352
    socal
    So I'm changing the oil in my 550M. Some of you know I race a Corvette C5 Z06 too. I got a stack of vette oil filters OEM AC delco pf46 is the number. My opinion on oil filters is that there are several grades of filter media. The cans are basically the same and all the good stuff is in the quality of the base gasket seal and the filter media. As a result I have always used OEM filters and I'm a notorious early oil changer. I suspect the Ferrari UFI filter to be a generic single stage just like the pf46 delco. Well both these filters are exactly the same size with the delco being about 3/4" longer. I spun on a delco and it fits perfectly. UFI's are over 50 bucks for 2 while the delcos are 8 bucks for 2 or even cheaper if you buy them by the dozen like I do. When I finish my stock of UFI's I'm using the delcos.
     
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    20,296
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #2 Steve Magnusson, Mar 28, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2009
    Why not cut a used UFI and a new AC Delco sample open when you have the chance? A few other areas I'd add to your list are, how the media structure is made and supported, is the bypass valve resettable/not-resettable/present, and the "quality"/design of the anti-drainback valve. You'll probably never make-up the extra transportation/distribution costs associated with getting the UFI to the USA (even if the UFI has some better design points -- which it may not), but it would be an interesting comparison IMO.

    (The Baldwin, UFI, and Fram for the V8s appear "identical" from the outside too ;))
     
  4. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,352
    socal
    Agreed! One of the reasons I would consider this is because the 550 filters are at the bottom of the engine and don't use an antidrainback valve. I also think ferrari is too cheap to use a dual stage bypass filter for the extra filtration. But even if the ufi is a dual stage the advanced frequency of my oil changes leads me to believe a single stage filter is just fine. GM itself actually sets the specs for its oil filters and the filtration is something like 85% of the oil to 8 microns. I forget the exact spec but I was pretty impressed.
     
  5. kosmo

    kosmo Formula 3

    Oct 19, 2008
    1,438
    BIg D
    FBB, this is a great thread. I wonder its the same for a 456M?
    Separately I have heard that the Tranny Filters on a 456 GTA are Delco's. I think Ferrari sells them for $250/pair!!!
     
  6. ferrariblex

    ferrariblex Karting

    Sep 28, 2005
    116
    Madison, WI
    Full Name:
    Brandon Blexrude
    Fatbillybob,

    You and others on Ferrarichat should consider creating and emailing me a list of UFI oil filter part #s for which there are no reasonably-priced alternate oil filters, what the oil filters typically retail for, and which Ferrari applications they are for. I will then will submit a written request to the manufacturers my employer, Rock Auto, is an authorized retailer for and ask that they start producing them as we would like to sell them. I may be wrong, but I believe RockAuto is a big enough retailer that one or some of the manufacturers will take the request seriously.
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,137
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    FBB your assumption about burst strength is very wrong. Oil filters vary a great deal in that area. It is also one area that is very important on a Ferrari. Few American or Japanese cars ever see the oil pressure present in your 550 every time you start it. One of the big differences in the name brand oil filters when they market a racing or high performance filter is the burst strength because their standard line isn't strong enough for a motor with high oil pressure.

    While I consider many of the name brand oil filters very good for their intended application I have seen way to many of them blown up, often with loss of motor or a fire when exposed to motors that make the 120-140 lbs of pressure commonly experienced in a Ferrari. Your 550 is going to do that every time you start it and actually I am confident with a mechanical gauge it would be much higher. If you want a reality flash by a pair of brand new filters for it and measure them carefully and use them for a couple of hundred miles and remeasure. You will find they have "Balloned". Especially the end with all the flat surfaces and the 550 UFI is a very strong filter.

    Also many of the "Dual stage" or "Double" oil filters have been found to do even less filtration in tests because the combined elements inhibited flow to the degree that the pressure bypass was always open allowing a very high percentage of the oil go unfiltered.

    With my various vehicles I have generally stuck with OE filters in the hope that someone actually did a little engineering and made sure engine and filter were a good match. In reality how much would you be saving anyway? It is very unusual for a Ferrari owner to NEED to change oil more than once a year and in that case I really think price shopping filters that may not be suitable is a very false economy.
     
  9. Jettafanatic

    Jettafanatic Karting

    Nov 8, 2008
    150
    Santa Barbara, CA
    Full Name:
    Claudio
    My 2 cents: you can get the UFIs for $42 on Ebay... Not as cheap as Delcos, but not that much all things considered.
    I am glad FBB tested what I had suspsected ( had some extra oil filters from other project cars and 2 screwed on easy...) I have seen my supercharged VR6 Jetta break the internal holder for the internal oil filters (due to the added pressure of the S/C and higher weigh oil I had to run on the track in 110 degree weather) so I chickened out and remoced them. I agree with most here that there really is no reason to the price of most parts on our car being so high, but given the alternatives, and in this case probably one of the cheapest parts I was able to find for our cars, I'll stick to OEM UFIs just in case the gearheds at Maranello got it right.... I still believe in Royal Purple though, call me crazy.... ;)
     
  10. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,352
    socal
    In general I totally agree but an oil filter is pretty low tech. We racers cap off OEM filter ports and reroute oil lines for remote filters and increasing oil volume for better cooling etc so I feel pretty brave with oiling systems. But switching anything off OEM in general could be a recipe for disaster for the uninformed. I actually did not mention anything about burst strength because I had nothing at the time to compare it other than both filters would not dimple in my hand when squeezed. The whole thought got started when I was changing my 550 oil on the lift and sitting on my swivel stool a case of delco filters is staring at me. I do remember back in the 308 days reports of being able to blow up thin oil filters with thick oil of the day on really cold mornings. You could feel the thickness of one of those fram ph8a (iirc) vs. another fram that would fit but flexed when you squeezed it. What crap fram is in general. I also do not think the UFI is a dual stage. I think the dual stage idea was, in general, a good concept badly executed by the general market. I would use the OE Delco from my vette not so much for cost savings but for ease because it is just one less thing for me to stock since I buy delcos by the dozen already. You can also get a delco filter in about 10 minutes from any point in the country. Your points are noted and appreciated. When I have some time I'll rig up a test rig and presurize a couple for filters to bulge and to failure and see what kind of numbers I get.
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    20,296
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    You might be confusing the internal standpipe issue (used only on the inverted use filters) with the anti-drainback valve -- if you check this link:

    http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/oilfilters/reference.html#fram-ph8a

    you will see that virtually all of these "ordinary" (not-inverted use) oil filters have an anti-drainback valve (really just a flap that cover the inlet holes) -- but let us know what you find inside.
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. kosmo

    kosmo Formula 3

    Oct 19, 2008
    1,438
    BIg D
    Just spoke to Ac Delco. The PF46 Filter Max pressure is 300PSI.
     
  14. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,352
    socal
    remember this really old thread?

    ****Well first everyone should read RifleDriver's post a few posts higher and think before they depart from OEM.*****


    But....just as another datapoint it appears that many OEM filters are not that great. When many filters get dirty there is a bypass valve in there and sometimes after a while you are getting no filtration of the oil at all. Then of course there is the problem of "dual" stage filters where oil again gets bypassed because of pressures issues when dirty and the filter stops filtering. Then there is the issue of paper filter internal breakdown and fouling the oil as well as not filtering. Then there is the issue of a new filter with just not great designed in filtration catching particles no smaller than the 75 micron range. Some are better than others like the GM spec of the delco's used on the vettes. I ran across this

    http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=25-132

    which has replaceable filters and high burst pressure in a billet aluminum filter canister body which I'll be trying on the vette racecar. It filters down to 8 microns and does not suffer the filtration problems of other spin on filters. Since the vette filters fit the 550 you guys can draw your own conclusions. They are a bit pricy but if this thing survives my racing and the oil reports come back good I'm going to try them on the 550.
     
  15. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    33,584
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    FBB- You looking for an excuse to rebuild your engine? You already did the brakes (StopTech). By the way, how about some photos of that installation?

    While you are at it, see if a 599 double plate clutch will fit in there. That would probably last forever.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     
  16. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,352
    socal
    funny you should say that. People talk about 3 and 5 year belt change intervals and it take all my strength to sit on my hands and not do it sooner just out of shear enjoyment of tinkering. When I raced my 348 and changed my belt yearly I was very happy. Maybe I should own a plane?
     
  17. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,352
    socal
    BTW the Stoptechs where not on my 550 but on my T1 vette racecar. Stoptech wants to develop a 4 wheel brake kit specifically for T1 racing in SCCA. They are using my car for the development. I have the first and only stoptech T1 kit so far. They work amazing and it is really cool to learn how real pros develop brakes. Stoptech rented out the racetrack and put a bunch of different caliper combinations on my car and ran all knids of wireless telemetry and voila ideal brake kit. It is running the full floating race trophy rotors not the consumer 2 piece aero rotor. I'm 14" front and 13" rear 4 piston calipers on stock master cylinder and it is alot of brake on sticky race tires. As a former vette driver you would be impressed. Stoptech makes the OEM brakes look like Fred Flintstones.
     
  18. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    33,584
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    #15 tazandjan, Dec 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    FBB- I see, said the blind man. Want four 550/575M brake rotors for $300 including shipping? Was going to put them in FerrariAds for $350, but for you a good deal. Take-offs with less than 5000 miles. You may not need them though. Did you see this rotor inspection guide from Mov'It? I had it in another thread.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,352
    socal
    Yeah this is why we racers don't use drilled rotors. IMO there is no good reason to use them. For street use they are fine. When running stock rotors on the c5 vette racecars we as a group use rotors for 2 days about 2-3 hrs of total tracktime then throw them out on the 3rd because they always crack through break and those are solid.
     
  20. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 1, 2011
    2,083
    Houston
    Full Name:
    John
    Carl, did you ever cut up a UFI filter? At the www.italiancarparts.com site, they have this to say about the UFI:

    "UFI’s innovative system performs triple oil filtration before the oil ever gets to the lubrication system! This is done by employing three different types of filter material, with different degrees of filtration and dirt-accumulation capacities. The system consists of an upper filter element composed of two different materials, placed to perform filtration in series, and a lower filter element, made of a third type of material, performing filtration in parallel with the upper filter element. The two elements perform differential oil filtration so that the oil, when in its initial lubricating and detergent condition, flows through the lower filter, which offers less resistance. When the oil starts to get dirty, the lower element provides more resistance and the performance of the upper element begins to increase. Filtration gets stronger as the oil increases its flow through the upper element due to the combined action of the two layers in series. Ferrari uses this type filter on the F512. The advantage to this system is: 1) maximum filtration efficiency 2) improved engine protection 3) system retains 99% of all impurities UFI has been in the filter business for over 25 years on the Italian and International markets. UFI was the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) to Ferrari and many other Italian Car Manufacturers."

    And did you ever try the Canton on your 550?

    Since the Ferrari spin-on thread is M20 x 1.5, which thread did you find is the better crossover fit: the 3/4-16 or the 11/16-16?

    The 3/4-16 is smaller than the M20, so it'll be a looser fit, but the 11/16-16 is bigger than the M20, so it should be a tight fit if it goes on at all. You said the 11/16-16 AC Delco filters for your 'vette spun on OK?

    Canton do offer an M20 thread on several of their filters, so this may be a moot point.
     
  21. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,352
    socal
    #18 fatbillybob, Oct 24, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2011
    Much of the vette is metric. So I could have a 20x1.5 filter boss I never bothered to look. But the Vette ac delco OEM filter spins on the ferrari and seems to have a very good fit. Personally I think the ufi is hype. So you got 2 filters and when the oil gets dirty to avoid presure build-up they have a second less efficient filter to plug up? To me a filter is a filter and the more important thing is can the filter body take the pressure and do you change your oil on a regular basis. An oil test will tell you much about engine health and you can schedule your oil changes by the test results. IMO for your kind of driving if people were really into all this they would stick to one brand of oil and one viscosity say Mobil1 10-40 and just run tests at 3K, 4K, 5K and maybe 6K to see the results and that your tell you the best time to dump your oil. Anything else is just rumor.

    Oh I forgot...no I never cut the oil can open to look at it. While the delco does fit I don't advocate it because the cold oil pressure of the 550 is quite high. I'd do some test on the delco can before I went for it. The filter ability does not interest me. The canton aftermarket that racers use relocating the oil filters is fine. I'd use that with no reservations. Those are good units. But there is not a lot of good reasons to use anything but the UFI. They just aren't expensive enough to interest me in another new project.
     
  22. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 1, 2011
    2,083
    Houston
    Full Name:
    John
    Thanks Carl, I crossed your Delco PF46 filter to the equivalent Baldwin, which is a B31, and it has a 13/16-16 thread. (BTW, I just noticed typos in my last post; where I was referring to 11/16 threads, those should have been 13/16. Obviously 11/16 threads are not larger than 3/4 threads......one too many Shiraz's last night, I guess :))

    The B31 has an internal drainback valve, but doesn't have an internal bypass valve, which the UFI filter does have (set to 1.6 bar, according to the UFI website: http://217.141.19.68/uficat/scheda_filtro_popup.php?IDFiltro=23.284.00&IDLingua=1) GM and others put the bypass valve on the engine side, which is probably a better way to do it than trusting the bypass valve in a $5 filter....

    Just for S&G's I had a search on Baldwin's site for filters with the 550's M20x1.5 threads, and none cross over well. In the 13/16" thread, however, there's your 'vette filter, the B31, and also the B1432, which looks to be about an inch longer version of the B31, and it also does not have an internal bypass valve.

    The reason I resurrected your old thread was to search for some ideas on how to reduce the 550's high oil pressure at cold startup, without resorting to changing the safety/relief valve setting at the oil pump, or going to a 0W oil (I'm old school). To me, high oil pressure (depending on where it's occurring) can mean certain areas of the engine can be starving for oil, while other areas (such as front and rear main seals, oil filters, and oil coolers) can be overpressured and damaged.

    It would be interesting to know where the pressure drops actually are in the 550's system. Since the OEM oil pressure sender is just after the pump, and still upstream of the filters, it's seeing the entire pressure drop of the system. It would be very useful to know what the pressure is downstream of the oil filters, and also downstream of the engine (before the oil cooler). This would tell us if there is a big deltaP across the filters, or possibly the oil cooler, or mainly the engine itself?

    It would seem there could be a fairly large deltaP across the filters, since Ferrari put two of them in parallel, so the flow could be split and the pressure drop halved. But if they were that concerned about pressure drop across the filters, why didn't they put longer filters there; there's certainly plenty of room? Longer filters with more surface area exposed to the flow would have reduced pressure drop even more at that point. Anyway, we know the UFI filters will not allow more than 1.6 bar pressure drop each, because that's what their bypass valves are set to. If the deltaP at the filters goes higher than that, we'll just get unfiltered oil going to the engine. Comforting thought......

    So, it could be interesting to fit some longer oil filters (perhaps those Baldwin B1432's?) as a test to see if the cold oil pressure would come down. Has anyone tried this?
     
  23. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,352
    socal
    John,

    All sounds interesting but don't we have SDECU project yet to finish? Should we be looking where no oil problem exists? Can you document a problem yet to be discovered? If we were doing the canton to get easy cheap filters and an extra qt of oil volume to aid oil cooling under race conditions that's an area to go for. As a streetcar living mostly in a garage from 40*F-100*F ambient I'm not seeing an advantage. I would be all for a cheap easy to get filter however. If you wanted the SAE thread iirc you can unscrew the steel fitting off the Ferrari block and either make or purchase the right one to use the SAE thread. You could then have a cheap one time expense then go baldwin all the way. Baldwins have been known to be good ferrari filters on some models. Still I'd like to see some burst numbers for a compatible baldwin before i went that route. I change oil so often that I don't even think I need a filter. In fact I have threatened to pull the oil from my Ferrari and stick it in my truck for a second life. Now that is being cheap!
     

Share This Page