550 strange noise

My 550 started making strange noises and had to be picked up and taken to the dealer. The noise (a light clattering) was coming from the area marked with an arrow shown below.

Can anyone tell me what is located behing the black plastic cover in this area?
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Timing belts for right cam shaft. Sounds like the are coming apart

 

Thanks Christopher

Oh dear, sounds expensive !

Odd, since belts were only changed 18 months ago.

 

In that area the only things I can think of are timing belt bearings (tensioner bearing or lower timing gear bearing), and more down below you still have the alternator and A/C pulley to make noises, and that's about it. How many miles on the vehicle?

It could be the garage overtensioned the belts at the last service. Ask them about whether they use a Staeger (tensiometer), and see whether they recognise that name or have a glazed look in their eyes.

If it turns out to be a belt tensioner bearing, i'd have a good chat with your garage because that means it was not changed with your timing belts, which is a bad thing (I think it's ok to skip exchanging these, but only once and only if you don't drive the car much, and don't leave them on longer than 6 years).

On my 456 there was a noise in that area, it turned out the lower timing gear bearing was falling apart. It made a quite loud noise that could even be heard inside the car. The bearing itself is not expensive at EUR60 but it is a fair bit of work to reach it. It's the same amount of work to exchange the cam belts, plus the work to exchange the bearing. It is possible to replace it without taking the front cover off but that does take skill and some good tools, especially a specific bearing puller. If your car has this problem, ask the garage to renew the cam belts while they're in there. Officially they should replace them anyway since it's not allowed to re-tension a used belt, but make sure they replace them both (!) and have them make a note in the service book. It means your next belt service will be reset again at 3 years from now.

If you look at how these bearings are loaded, it makes sense that the port side of the car fails well before the other side, even though they seemingly perform completely identical functions. The load on the port side bearing is different from the other side because of the timing belt orientation, on port side the forces from the drive on the shaft are in-line (in the same direction) with the timing belt pulling force, on the other side they are not in-line. This means the bearing on that side has a much easier task. I made some pictures that are nearly self-explanatory, will see if I can post them later on.

 

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If the problem is not simple like an auxiliary belt and the cambelts need to be changed, I would recommend you put on the 575M tensioner brackets and change the tensioner bearings. This will bring the cam drive up to 575M standard and, with belts, tensioners and brackets changed, should allow, in my opinion, 5 years between belt changes. My lock and swap was only $1200 plus parts in 2008.

The good news is that cambelt changes in a Maranello are not that expensive compared to a TR, 348 or 355.

http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=262598

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Thanks for all your replies.

Typically the dealer has not bothered to call me to tell me what the problem is, when he does, i'll report back.

Thanks again

 

Seems the cam drive bearing has failed. Luckily it doesn't seem to have caused much damage, but it's a big job to replace (c40 hours !)

Will have more info later and some pictures, so i'll post those.

Any experts care to try to explain to me in simple terms what the cam drive bearing does, and what could have made it fail.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbqN5wxMk0E

 

overall, from the start this has been one of the best, most informative and helpful posts. Thank you, as I'm coming up to my second major service in my 456MGT . . . oh ya, and my first clutch and throwoutbearing - any hints on this part? Thank you all for your input, keep it up!
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Peter- The good news is Ferrari clutches and throw-out bearings are not that expensive (non-F1 T/O bearings, that is). I would just put in new Ferrari-sourced parts, with possibly a Hill Engineering T/O bearing, which comes with seals already fitted. There have been some owners who used kevlar lined clutches with mixed results, but I would just stick with the old standards.

http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=262238

http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=335955

http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=207324

I like your white with tan 456M. Very striking.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

The crankshaft has a cog that drives two secondary cogs, which in turn drive the belts that drive the cams. If you look up in this thread, you'll see the drawing of the front of the motor as posted by 308GTB, if you look at that and think about how the cams will be driven in this design I think it should be clear. The cam drive bearing your shop is speaking of is the same as the "timing gear bearing" I spoke of in my earlier post. In the drawing these bearings are located behind the two number (3) pulleys in the drawing.

My opinion is that 40 hrs is steep to replace it, very steep. Like I said it depends on whether they're going to change them all or just the defective one, and whether they will be taking the front cover off the motor or not to do it. In total there are four bearings there, two at the front directly behind the pulleys and two at the rear that are within the engine and always nicely lubricated by engine oil, as opposed to the fronts which are "sealed for life". Most times the front ones fail, people leave the rear ones alone with good results. Do a search for "timing gear bearings" on this forum and you'll get a number of interesting results.

Lots of Fcar owners get away with just using a specific bearing puller and exchange only one or both of the outer ones. Which is a job that should in my opinion be possible to be cleared in about a day by an experienced F-car mechanice having with the right tools, 40hrs is way too much imho. And yes that includes exchanging the cambelts, albeit not precisely timing the cams to the new belt, but how are you now sure your shop has been so accurate, or will be in this repair?. In most of cases the new belts are so accurate it's not even needed.

Did the shop say anything about the change including the belts? Did they tell you at all what is so "big" about this job? It's a matter of belt service + the bearing exchange. What do/would they charge for a normal belt service? 30 hrs or more?

It is just a matter of getting the belt covers and crank pulley off, undo the pulley nut, take all four belts off, slide off pulley, pull bearing with puller, cool shaft and heat front cover, and tap the new bearing into place. Reinstall belts, pulleys, set belt tension, put on covers - done. if you want to replace the two rear ones also, the removal of the front cover and bearings and reassembly of all that is a significant step in between that will take another 4 hours I think. But in total still nowhere near 40 hours. Now if there is a timing of cams involved, removal of cam covers and retiming of cams and pulleys, we're coming somewhat closer. So I would certainly ask them to cough up a list of items and actions they think they're going to need and perform.
I suspect for the money they're going to charge you I could fly over from Amsterdam, fix it for you, you pay me my ticket and expenses, and you'll still have money left over... easily - no that's not an offer

EDIT: you asked what made it fail? How many miles are on the car? It's either just usage and/or past overtightening of the belt(s).

 

This should make it a bit clearer.
Taz
Terry Phillips
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Taz, thanks, that does indeed help, also look at the drawing here that includes the front cover and the front timing gear bearing (26).
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I have fixed many of those. If that is the source of your noise and you do not remove the front cover and replace all the bearings you are asking for trouble. Also often by the time the bearings are giving trouble the oil pump drive chain is in need of replacement. Also the front cover gaskets are known to fail and cause oil leaks. Once it is that far apart the intake manifold and valve covers need to come off to degree the cams. I have also seen failures of the oil pump drive shaft bearings.

It is not a small job.

Do it once, do it right. It is not a good area to patch.

 

575MM and 456MGT both the track... Nice nice nice... Love to see F-Cars on track...

Alex

 

Brian- Thanks for chiming in. A lot of work. Might as well rebuild the water pump while in there, too, since parts are now available and it is not too expensive.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Thanks for the replies guys. It appears that the camshaft drive bearings (left side) have failed.

The quote to repair seems to be: Removal of Inlet manifold, both camshaft covers, crankshaft pulley, replace all bearings and gaskets, refit and replace cam belts
Approx 35 hours.

My lack of knowledge of whether all this work is necessary is not really helping. But I guess it's best to get it sorted properly, than risk issues in the future.

I'll update when outcome is clearer.

 

Rifledriver, do the oil pump chain or bearings have specific noises attached to their impending failure or is that a blow up without warning kind of affair?
It doesn't say it in the list that 550JAB published, should he check for it or have it done?

As for state of maintenance... I'd like to enjoy my toy a little as well, not just focus on keeping it perfect . I agree that if the front timing gear bearing has failed to destruction, the cover should be taken off and the rear bearing replaced.
In the case of my car one of the front bearings was making more noise than it should, kind of like a worn alternator bearing - more white noise than a clatter. It hadn't failed (yet) and was still bearing load. My car has only 57000 km and with the bearing removed there was very little play on the shaft, indicating the rear was still intact. The cause of it in my case was that the tensioner on that side tensioned the belt much more than on the other - so I suspect the belt simply was on too tight.
In such a case I do not consider it necessary to replace everything, in my view the additional work was not warranted. I'll be in there in another three years with the next belt change anyway. The other bearing was checked with a stethoscope as well as for play, and found to be still intact. Since I drive the car only for about 3-4k km per year, I think the repair as such should last quite a few years, and since I know what to listen for I'll know if anything goes in that area. Hell, the km I will be putting on in those three years will be less than I put on my daily driver in six months, during which all I do is check the oil...

 

All seems better now. I've arranged a repair and I think the final labour bill will be much less than the original estimate of 35 hours. probably more like 15-16 hours.

Still unclear what caused the problem, but it's starting to sound like a very slightly overtightened cam belt, causing bearing wear slowly over 18 months, resulting in the current failure.

Makes me think that our obsession with regular as clockwork belt changing, might be doing more harm than good, given the scope for mistakes in the refitting vs the possibility of the belts themseves failing.

 

Not if you take it to someone who knows what they are doing.

 

If someone used a tensiometer on the belts like they were supposed to, there would not have been a problem caused by that factor. Might be something else, but not that. If the cambelts were mistensioned, there is a good chance the auxiliary belts were mistensioned, too. Sloppy work multiplies problems.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

+1

 

Good to hear you've worked something out. I don't think this obsession creates these problems, but the risk of bad work or somebody making a mistake is there of course, everytime somebody goes in to replace things. Whether that weighs against leaving it alone, I tend not to think so.
When the interval says 3 years, it won't explode on you if you wait another 6 months or so - yes the risk of a failure increases, but that risk is always there, even during the 3 year period - and since new parts can have defects too of be installed incorrectly, chances of a failure are actually elevated right at and after the work being done. It's chances, and it's up to you how you'd like to challenge the bell curve.

 

Hi guys,

This bearing failure has just cropped up on my car at about 40K miles. As soon as I heard the noise the car went straight to Bobileff who is doing the repair now, estimating about 30 hours for labor. Fortunately the issue is limited to the bearings for now and everything else seems to be fine. Both front and rear bearings will be changed out and the belts replaced as well. I'm curious how many people have seen this bearing failure at 40K and whether it's more likely to be an age, mileage, or service issue. I saw the comments in the thread about other related issues. Anything you guys know of from past experience that you think ought to be tossed as part of preventative maintenance while Gary and his guys have the front of my engine apart? I'd rather not pay again to go back in there and replace something else in another year.