Indeed! Presumably at or not far below the £160K mark. What was the asking price then? Wise choice IMO.
Asking £215k at the time, and IIRC, similar mileage, but wouldn't entertain anything even slightly lower. Thanks - I hope so! While there's been a lot said about the manual 575 with FHP vs 550, the reality is, with the 575 yes you are getting a stronger motor, a more modern dash etc as you would expect for the later car, but behind the wheel, you are splitting hairs to find any real advantage. A lot what is said seems to be a fairly desperate attempt to justify the manual premium (along with the rarity element). Plus the 550 looks a cleaner design to me than the 575. The first designs are often the best, before the tinkerers got to work!
The RM car looks nice. For: FHP; good colour combo; sounds like it has been well maintained. Against: 58,000 miles is the highest on the market by a long way; no Daytonas or modulars, no mention of rear shelf. 215k was way to much to ask for a near-60k miles car. Will be interesting to see what it sells for. If I had to guess, I'd hazard 165 + premium. Let's say it sells for 180 all in. And let's say a 60k miles 550 is 65% of that price. Is the 575 worth the difference? Is an alloy 275 GTB worth the difference? A Daytona Spider over a coupe? A Daytona over a 365 GTC4? A 16M over a manual 430 Spider? A Vetroresina over a 308 GTB dry sump? A 993 Turbo S over a Turbo? Everyone will have a different answer to all those questions. But the manual 575, with FHP, as stock, is a significantly different car to drive to a 550; the difference is more significant than several of those examples above.
Fresh back from Pebble Beach, I will go "No Sale" ! Not because its a bad car, its not and it would be welcome in my garage. I suspect though that the reserve is north of 150 and I don't think it will make it. My estimate of value would be around 135 plus premium, though of course its an auction and anything can happen on the night.
Seriously? A 60k mile 550 would barely top £90k let alone your £120k. A suggest a dose of reality from pistonheads... Having spent several hours back to back between a 550 and a 575 manual, I cannot even begin to imagine how from a driving perspective you could argue the 575 manual could be worth twice a comparable 550 if we use your £180k for the 575. People maybe willing to pay more for the manual 575 because of perceived rarity, but people also did pay up for certain tulips back in the day. But what I very much doubt, is that the value difference has much to do with the driving experience, which is what I would care about if I was buying a 60k mile car.
The f430 manual is worth double the 360 manual because of its rarity. The same holds true for the 575 stick vs 550. The market dictates. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As I said above, that could be the case. But also worth bearing in mind that rarity by itself doesn't mean a premium. Manual 355 are far more common than F1 yet worth more. Why, because the F1 is a crude driving experience, being first gen My point is that the there virtually nothing in the driving experience between 575 manual and 550 to justify the 2x premium. Rarity alone enough? That's an interesting question.
Rarity is one of the top factors if not the number one factor when it comes to pricing of Ferraris. Driving experience is rarely a factor when it comes to pricing. Just look at manual 599s vs a normal ones. Manuals trade at over 3x the price of a normal car even though most people who have driven both say the normal one is a better drive. Btw at the top of the market two years or so ago people were asking some crazy prices for the 1999 F1 355's as well.
Sorry rushed the above post out without noticing the car is RHD. Add what? 15%-20% maybe ? Mileage will be the restraint though, as with all modern classic Ferrari, rather unjustly in the case of a well maintained 575.
I own a 575 manual and a 550. I enjoy them both immensely. They are quite different. If you would like to 'begin to imagine the difference' between driving the two, and don't have access to either, you are welcome to read my posts on the subject here, or articles I and others have written in various magazines and online forums, all at the tap of a Google, all referenced on this board. Or if you are nearby, we can go for a drive one day. Very expensive cars are often dreadful to drive. Cars that are wonderful to drive are not always expensive. The correlation is not a given, by any means. There were 246 manual 575s, and 3083 550s, all manual. The relative rarity of the former compared to the latter is not 'perceived' but actual.
Very interesting. Darius as an owner of both 550 and 575 is convinced of the superiority of the latter, while Barry's driving experience seems to lead him to believe that there is no significant difference, if I have understood him correctly. I have in the past heard others who have owned both, say they preferred the 550. There is clearly a diversity of opinion from informed sources with no particular axe to grind. I can only conclude that it is another case of "one man's meat is another man's poison". As far as the value difference is concerned, IMO it is almost entirely down to rarity and, as Darius has illustrated, there is a huge difference in the production figures. Given that the rarity premium is more the province of the investor than the driver, however, I wonder whether the fact that this car has done the huge (heavy sarcasm) mileage of almost 60K will mean that those who put greatest store by rarity will not be buyers because of the mileage? Maybe we'll find out next week!
I think most of the opinions on this thread are valid...it is all down to personal preference and expectation. The high-end cars with rarity, if that matters to you, are the ones being offered to 'collector/investors'...........then get socked away, only to do 200 miles a year, and in the hope that the investment will be rewarded over time. F1 vs stick shift? The F1 is not an automatic..........it is a manual shift without a stick........again, personal choice. In my recent search for a suitable car I struggled with mind-games over a manual 550 or 575 F1.......to pay £90/100,000 more for a stick-manual 575, for my budget, wasn't even worth the consideration. God knows how many hours I've spent on FChat reading opinions, and looking at all the photos too. Final choice came down to a 575 F1......the posts and the magazine article from Darius swayed it; besides which I have other cars, both stick-shift and fully automatics. Not fond of red, so that was out. Silver ?..very nice except most cars out on the road these days seem to be silver of some shade.....so back to my old favourite, black. My car has a black interior as well, so, for me perfect ! Mileage is low, but not important........we want to drive it and enjoy it....which I think is what Ferrari had in mind when they designed and built it. Thanks to all, for your input.
That is clearly not what I said above. For your benefit, I repeat below "Having spent several hours back to back between a 550 and a 575 manual, I cannot even begin to imagine how from a driving perspective you could argue the 575 manual could be worth twice a comparable 550 if we use your £180k for the 575." Having spent time behind the wheel of each car (road but not track), my statement is simply about the value difference being not being attributable to a difference in driving experience. Sure there are differences, but they are not in anyway significantly better to explain a premium, in my view. Err... what has that got do with anything?!!! Nonetheless, thank you for stating the obvious. In any event, I found both cars entertaining drives. My original post was missing the word value after rarity i.e. perceived rarity value. Rarity is obviously a fact - thanks for pointing that out. But not all rarity leads to higher value. e.g. my earlier example of the more common 355 manual being more valuable than F1 all other things being equal. That has to do with the driving experience/ reliability of the F1. My view is that while a rarity premium exists for a 575 manual, it is not because of a better driving experience.
+1 That was my point earlier about why you'd care about the rarity on a 58K mile driver. As you say, all will be revealed shortly, as you say!
Very true. I have a mate who a couple of years ago did a manual conversion to factory specs on his 599. He did very well on the sale, helped by a Classiche certificate (!), but said the car was a dog to drive because of the flywheel etc all set up for F1. Rarity alone without being backed up some desirable aspect(s) becomes a questionable collecting proposition in the long run. Of course, bubbles excepted!
Yes, this view is commonplace among those who observe the collector market from the outside. It's not possible to rationalise luxury, partly because the pursuit of investments of passion is a human frailty, as by extension is the concept of luxury. We hear this about the contemporary art market, the brand equity of luxury goods, by extension the value of precious metals and stones. With cars, the same applies to any collectible. Rationalising an emotional value is impossible, a priori. Now whether that applies to individual models (a 575 manual, a 275 GTB/4) can only be established by the passage of time, at any single point in time. But on the internet, anyone can say anything, anytime!
You have completely lost me...(and I suspect many others) Is this an excerpt from a school philosophy essay?
Agreed. Very well put, Darius. As a person and as a Ferrari owner, I have an almost Pavlovian response to rarity and I deeply and philosophically believe, when talking about Ferrari, it should be the major variable in dictating the price of a car. That's why when I started out looking for a 355, I went for the GTS F1 and none other (529 ever made) and I'm seriously put off my Ferrari's ever increasing production numbers. Not saying that I'm right or that this is the way to go, just goes to show some folks actually may prefer a manual 575 regardless, based on things such as rarity or, like Darius eloquently put it, the ever so delicate definition of luxury and desirability, so personal and hard to dissect. In the end, the market and its trends are but an heterogeneous amalgam of personal preferences, some more understandable, defensable and logic than others. Kind regards, Nuno.
Some people think that there's virtually nothing in the driving experience between a Volkswagen Phaeton and a Bentley - so should they be worth the same? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Very good point about production numbers. But I guess Ferrari, Mac, Porsche etc are producing as many limited editions as they can dream up while cashing in on rarity. The 355 example you give is an interesting case. The F1's are rarer than the manual but the market now values manuals more. Early F1's were a bit rough, so I guess driving experience doe sometimes factor into the price differences.
These are all very interesting points, and should ideally be discussed in person over a bottle of Sylvain Cathiard Romanee St Vivant 2005...luxury and desirability are complex concepts. On a practical note, if Ferraris didn't have the respect of racers and engineers, the brand would be nothing. But luxury and collectability is, as you say Nuno, an amalgam of all these different factors, including a reputation of each model. 355s have a powerful brand as brilliant drivers' cars with five valve sound that propelled V8 Ferraris into the modern era. Maranellos have a very different (very sophisticated) brand. All of which impacts on values, along with many other factors. Those who abide purely by Kantian principles of reason and value for money will not buy a Ferrari at all; they will be very happy saving their money, driving an auto 4x4 diesel on all season tyres (a solid driving experience year round), sporting a digital watch (which gives a better timekeeping experience than an Audemars), and attending soirées in jogging gear, all the better for the comfort experience.
And their resale/collector values pale in comparison to the manual/automatic version. That said, I would not mind have a Quartz PP
