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575 manual watch, Europe

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by Themaven, Aug 1, 2015.

  1. Teejay

    Teejay Rookie

    Sep 12, 2017
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    Tim Jenner
    Taz,
    It's not the one (the Mov-It owner's car) you refer to - I still have that and don't intend to sell.This one at DK Eng is almost identical to mine; I looked at it 5 years ago in Germany at Eberlein but decided against because it looked untidy. Glad I did because the Mov-It owner's car is pretty much perfect.The DK Eng car may well have been sorted since then, but it's been on offer for 5 - 6 months now.
     
  2. 21ATS

    21ATS Formula Junior

    Dec 10, 2016
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    Alan
    All the listed UK manual 575's have now been on the market for a while. The appetite for them at these prices seems to have diminished.

    I see it like this.

    These are low volume cars, only 69 RHD manuals so there is certainly a collectability about them. Due to a number of reasons outside of the Ferrari world, i.e. Brexit, the economy in general, uncertainty blah blah blah the bottom seems to have fallen out of the classic car market as far as investors and speculators are concerned. That's except for clean well priced cars - these will always sell. The following 550 is a good example. Priced at £89K it sold within a week of being advertised. https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/ferrari/550/sold-another-keenly-required-ferrari-550-maranello-35-000-miles/9729200

    Serious collectors don't seem to want 40K mile cars. They want something in the teens or preferably sub 10K miles. The days of a 100% premium on a manual over an F1 car of similar spec are now history, at least for this cycle. No doubt it will happen again.

    Example:-

    A clean 575M F1 - 22k miles - FHP at a respected specialist is available at £75K and it's been advertised for a few months now.

    https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/ferrari/575/ferrari-575m-f1-uk-rhd--fiorano-handling-package/9547353

    A 575M Manual - 46K miles - Non FHP also with a well respected specialist at £150K, also been on the market for some months.

    https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/ferrari/575/575m-manual/9308380


    Realistically I see the F1 car at high £60's to £70K and the manual car closer to the £100k - £110K region.

    So the manual owners probably won't sell as they are still thinking the huge figures these cars were commanding pre Brexit vote still applies to some degree.

    The Ferrari Centre did sell a manual 575 for £200K right before the Brexit vote. A year later they sold a similar spec manual for £120K.

    It is what it is and it's unlikely to change until this country figures out if we're in or out or are we still going to continue to do the hokey cokey with the EU.
     
  3. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie
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    There were some even higher prices, some documented on this thread, including the 1000km non FHP silver/red 02 manual offered at 215k SFR at Elite Zuswil in March 2015 and sold into the UK and reoffered (plus VAT and margin) - does anyone know where that is now?

    Alan, I don't think Brexit explains it. Prices are down in countries which have nothing to do with Brexit. Though it doesn't help, for sure, in the UK.
     
  4. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Tim- My mistake, should have looked at the e-mails I had from back then and checked serial numbers. Yours is absolutely beautiful.

    LVP- The brakes on the 550 and 575M were the same except for one rear caliper piston size. Rotors and pads are interchangeable. ABS and ASR were much upgraded in the 575M, helped by the digital throttle. The main feature of HCTC was the CCM brakes and that drove other HGTC components like the different front underbody panel with brake hose fittings, upper front A arms with brake hose fittings, etc.
     
  5. 21ATS

    21ATS Formula Junior

    Dec 10, 2016
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    I agree Darius, I think Brexit is currently hiding a larger global problem that in reality is still a hangover from the credit crunch a decade ago.

    My business is now starting to be effected, we import in US$ and a third of our turnover is with one UK PLC who have just under 700 stores in the UK. They substantially reduced our forward orders for the rest of this year last week. They've made a decision to reduce stock levels until the current economic uncertainties are clearer if not solved.

    Fortunately we're solid enough to survive their complete loss and still be fine, at the loss of money of toys of course. It's not pretty out there currently. The golden boy of hedge funds, Neil Woodford's plight highlights the larger problem.
     
  6. Themaven

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    Sorry to hear that. It really is not great out there. And that cascades down to boys and their toys.
     
  7. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie
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    One thing all of these gated 575s have in common is that I wouldn't look at them if I were in the market. They're far from being the nicest ones. So while you can't sell them, it's also hard to buy them.
     
  8. BarryK

    BarryK Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2016
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    Yep, this is a pretty broken market. The problem seems to be that a lot of people speculatively piled into a 575 manual in 2015 and can't face taking the hit - either because they are financed and can't show a low valuation or it is just too painful. There are several nice cars in Germany/Holland/France etc that are sat there for months still with the clock stuck in 2016. The only one I know that sold here recently was from an estate, for €135k for a mid-20k km mint car with all the trimmings - FHP, luggage etc.

    With 550 and 575 prices so much lower now than 18 months ago, the only way these cars will start moving if they accept that the manual vs F1 premium will be more like 20-25% and not 80-100%. In the meantime the standoff goes on.
     
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  9. Themaven

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    That's interesting, although this belongs in the epic Maranellos are disappearing thread where I'm going to cut and paste it and add my comment if you don't mind, Alan...
     
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  10. BarryK

    BarryK Formula Junior

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    #585 BarryK, Jun 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019

    Your 35K 550 at £90k selling within a week vs 46k 575M at £150k not selling for months also illustrates a fundamental issue with the 575 manual: it is just too close to a 550 as far as owning and driving is concerned. So, once you take the speculators out of the market, there's little to support such a big gap between the two cars, even after factoring in some premium for rarity,

    Same issue with F512M pricing versus the more common but similar 512TR.
     
  11. 21ATS

    21ATS Formula Junior

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    I agree.

    However unlike "normal" cars, Ferrari's are a different market. People generally don't need to sell a Ferrari. So if their perception is it's worth £X's it's unlikely they will sell unless their perceived value price is met. This will also be combined with some who are stuck in negative equity on finance. This is how we find ourselves in this current non market where only correctly price nice cars are selling.

    Nothing will change unless (when rather than if) there's another financial event.
     
  12. 21ATS

    21ATS Formula Junior

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  13. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie
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    2016 price. I bought my own 575 manual in the first half of 2015 for over than 25% less than that. Similar mileage, better spec (Daytonas, leather shelf) and a better interior, and from an authorised dealer. At the time, only the very low miles cars were in the 180k ask.

    The red interior on this one is interesting, does not make for an easy sell. I agree that they are not going to sell that car now for this price.

    Does anyone think the passenger seat shows a lot of sagging for 28k miles? Is that a characteristic of the non Daytona seat? Or maybe just a well built passenger.
     
  14. BarryK

    BarryK Formula Junior

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    I am curious to know when these prices existed back at the height of the bubble.
    My recollection is that they had already moved up a lot by early 2015. Your own post below on this thread on 23 Aug 2015 would suggest you hadn't bought it in the first half of the year, so may be worth checking your records.

    Anyway, 35-40% off the asking price for the above car seems about right in the current market.
     
  15. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Rookie
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  16. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie
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    That is a nice one, John. A rare colour combination also and very classy also with modulars. I haven’t seen it on sale before. I really like that Nero on Beige.

    I couldn’t access the info about the car, does it have FHP and Daytonas?

    It is an optimistic price, as the car has some miles, but it’s very good to see a dealer take such care over their photography. Anyone interested should look at the “references” photography. I don’t know if it helps sell cars, but it looks good. (The 550 in references is not such an outstanding example)

    I am looking forward to driving mine for the first time in months when I get back to the UK. Although there’s now an additional ownership dilemma, as my daughter is now big enough to express a preference for the last V8 midengined manual Ferrari. Although she doesn’t put it quite like that, just “lets take the convertible”. The gatedness of the 575 (or any of the cars) is not part of her radar. I don’t know where I went wrong.
     
  17. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Darius- No Daytonas, but does have the leather rear shelf. Unable to tell about FHP. AN 55902, so she has all the late model post AN 52556 upgrades.

    It dawns on me the VAT question from Continental sellers will rear its ugly head if Brexit ever happens.
     
  18. 21ATS

    21ATS Formula Junior

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    Alan
    These are the current VAT rules when it comes to use vehicles that were fist registered on the continent.

    https://www.gov.uk/importing-vehicles-into-the-uk/paying-vat-and-duty

    When Brexit occurs, later this year (please!) I can see arrangements being made to use the same system in some sort of transitional phase. Unless that is it's an absolute no deal and we revert to WTO rules. Which I personally feel won't be the catastrophe it's being portrayed as. The bigger catastrophe is the indecision. That's currently creating more problems than politicians admit to.

    Having never imported vehicles (I import other products) from mainland Europe from what I see some countries seem to charge VAT at the prevailing rate on used vehicle sales anyway. So once Brexit occurs these sales would would technically be exports outside of the EU to the UK and therefore exempt from local VAT but becoming taxable on entry to the UK - so it might make a small difference.

    It's one of the unknowns of the limbo/vacuum we find ourselves currently.
     
  19. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Rookie
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    Almost zero information:

    "With its rare manual gearbox (only 246 produced) and very elegant colour combination this 575M is the most desirable versions on the market today. It was delivered new in 2004 in Luxembourg and has been very well maintained during the years. It is complete with books, keys, tools and cover. Before delivery a main timing belt service will be carried out to make this 575M ready to hit the roads again! Please enquire for more info."​
     
  20. Themaven

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    Alan, I have imported a few secondhand cars, including two Ferraris. All from the EU. So VAT wasn’t an issue. When I was thinking of importing a secondhand Ferrari from Switzerland, non EU, I was informed I would have to pay VAT and I think also tax on import. That’s because normal second hand cars are not sold with VAT added in any case, so there is nothing to exempt in the country of origin. But the importing country (UK) does charge VAT on import.

    There are VAT qualifying secondhand cars in the EU market, company cars usually, but it’s not clear whether a UK buyer would be able to reclaim Vat at origin, even if the buyer is a business. Outside the EU, I’m not sure if a VAT registered UK buyer could claim VAT back on a qualifying car at origin, but I doubt it.
     
  21. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Rookie
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    The shine may have gone off our cars as investments, but they're still doing pretty well. From Knight Frank's latest Luxury Investment Index report. AND we get to drive them, too - what could be better than that?!!:)

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  22. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie
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    Good stuff John. As you suggest, you might do well if you buy rare whiskies (though it depends on which one, and there are complications with bonded storage, sales and tax), but there’s no passion in that. Much as you might love your 65 year old Macallan, you can’t crack it open and take a sip and then sell it. Cars, art, jewellery, watches, stamps and coins are in the ‘own and enjoy’ category, while wine and whisky aren’t investments of passion at all, they are either one, or the other.

    In the past decade I have made money on cars, but for the previous two I lost money on them. Just as fun to drive either way.
     
  23. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Rookie
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    I don't think any of us here have bought our cars primarily as investments. As you say, Darius, they are "own and enjoy", with the comfort of knowing that they are unlikely to depreciate in the same way as newer cars, and sometimes may even appreciate, especially if owned over a long period, BUT we have made our choices based on driving enjoyment, rather than investment potential. It is, however, comforting to learn that we may have inadvertently made good investment decisions along the way, even though that was not our motivation.

    I am not a whisky drinker, but if I were passionate about my aged malts, then I think I would buy in bond, wait until it had doubled in value, sell half and reinvest the proceeds, and set the other half aside for drinking.

    However, I am in danger of going OT - I don't want to be accused of starting www.maltwhiskychat.com!:D
     
  24. Vilhuer

    Vilhuer Rookie

    Aug 3, 2008
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    Brexit means brexit. It also means VAT and customs border is once again erected between UK and EU. Very few people in UK have really experienced what this means because at last time UK was outside common market buying anything abroad was almost exclusively reserved for few import/export companies. No internet back then. As Finland joined EU much later in 1995 I have some experience of ordering car parts, CD's, books etc. when Finland wasn't yet member. Many people in UK will finally understand good points of EU when Brexit is finalized. Books etc. obviously aren't exactly same as importing cars. Importing and exporting cars is more complex. Everyone can guess what selling price of below 348TS will be when buyer has to pay 10% customs tax and top of that 17-25% VAT when he/she wants to import it to EU country. Include possible further £ slide against ‎€ and its really going to be buyers market for whatever LHD cars there are in UK.
    https://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/ferrari/348/1992/663018
     
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  25. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Rookie
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    Very true.:(
     
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