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575M Build

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by white out, May 1, 2020.

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  1. hwyman

    hwyman Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2015
    329
    Canada / Los Angeles
    Damn Nick can't believe we both got into the front engine Ferrari game... I have the Grigio Murci Roadster from Canada that was down at Newport for service a few years back! I assume youre still rocking the manual LP?
     
  2. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    38,086
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Nick- The principals I outlined above are well documented. The V12 is a model of efficiency for exhaust scavenging because of the evenly spaced exhaust pulses. The analog to this is the flat crank V8, which also offers superior scavenging to a 90 degree crank V8 because it is two four cylinder engines on a common crank. A 90 degree V8 is four V-twins on the same crank and needs a bundle of snakes exhaust for good scavenging, not usually possible on production vehicles.

    So if you want maximum efficiency on the exhaust you are proposing, keep all the exhaust pipes on the same side. Crossing them over will cost hp and torque. If you need hints on how to do this, look at Fabio's headers or at the headers on a 599 GTO. Part of the 599 GTO's extra power came from a 6-1 exhaust compared to the 599 GTB's 3-2-1 exhaust, combined with eliminating the precats and using lower backpressure primary cats.

    None of this is anything new and is well described in engine design literature. 599 GTO exhaust below.


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  3. white out

    white out Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2010
    1,229
    I remember that. Loved your car.

    Yeah, I still have the manual LP.

    You're generalizing based off of other exhaust systems/data and I am not willing to take the time and effort to explain the physics of exhaust scavenging in the exhaust after the precats. Nor do you have the required information to create the flow characteristics of my exhaust with an undisclosed runner length or diameter; collector design; exhaust design and valve placement/operation vs. 6-1 tubular manifolds/headers and the current ehxuast offerings.

    So, like I previously said ... speculative.
     
  4. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    38,086
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    And like I said, well understood basic principles that are unaffected by your variables, all of which are secondary effects if the basic principles are followed. Why reinvent the wheel when we know round wheels work best? What have precats got to do with tubular headers? Methinks you are just blowing smoke.
     
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  5. white out

    white out Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2010
    1,229
    Go re-read the thread.
     
  6. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    38,086
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Nah, wasted enough time on this one.
     
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  7. white out

    white out Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2010
    1,229
    indeed.
     
  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    38,086
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Thanks for the treatise on BMC filters and tinting, though.
     
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  9. white out

    white out Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2010
    1,229
    Go take a look at what I do before you try making your knowledge about the 550/575 relevant to the real world.
     
  10. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    38,086
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Kind of lost interest. Too many things I would not do to my 575. Some I have done you would likely not like, either.
     
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  11. white out

    white out Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2010
    1,229
    #37 white out, May 6, 2020
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
    Back on track. For those of you have no idea what I drive, here is a quick breakdown.

    The car the 575M replaced as my daily driver.

    watch this:


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    Now for the fun cars . . .
    1.

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    after making mods that "don't work" . . . highest n/a powered Murci and fastest 60-130 Murci.

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    2.
    going where no other DMCs have gone, laundry list of mods includes 348 challenge calipers

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    Currently swapping a KIA race motor
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    which was also used in this (you may have seen it on TV)
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    For the Fchat OG, the guy who designed the exhaust built this:

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    So what I'm getting at is . . . the 575M is hands down the slowest car in my garage an my girlfriend's GT3 will RUN from it. So the goal is to get it running more quickly than my Viper and not feel quite so ... comfy.

    Based off my past . . . the general consensus of how things "should be" isn't the route I take.
     
  12. brogenville

    brogenville Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 24, 2012
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    UK
    Full Name:
    Robin
    Agree that there is value in looking beyond the existing doctrine if you want to move the game on, but the counter argument is that this (meaning the exhaust stuff) isn't new ground. Please don't take that to mean we don't like hearing about this stuff- always cool to see someone's project car come to life as they make it their own.

    Will there be dyno runs to prove the exhaust mods deliver? Be a good way to silence the non-believers. :)
     
  13. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    13,221
    MO
    Well said.
     
  14. hwyman

    hwyman Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2015
    329
    Canada / Los Angeles
    Lol its funny Nick and Taz that you guys got off on the wrong foot because youre both great guys and both are similar in finding new alternatives to modernize and improve old designs. Nick developed a lot of skunkwork improvements on Diablos and Murcis. As has Taz on the 550/575's. You guys should bury the hatchet. Nicks come up with some bad mother exhausts on a few cars in the past. Anyways thats my 0.02 but between the two of you there is a TON of knowledge.
     
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  15. white out

    white out Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2010
    1,229
    No before/after dyno sheets. There will be before/after data logging via draggy. The best baseline 60-130 run with the 575M is 11.74. The goal is for it to beat the Viper, which ran 9.37. Hopefully the combination of exhaust, filters and suspension have significant gains because a nearly 2.5 second deficit is a major difference.

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  16. ferraridriver

    ferraridriver F1 Rookie

    Aug 8, 2002
    4,137
    Bay Area Calif.
    Full Name:
    Dave
    RE: passenger side wiper arm
    Cut the arm about a half inch behind the rectangular hole, bevel edges to get good penetration, turn end over and weld back together. TIG brazing with silicon bronze rod works well. Grind/file smooth then repaint. Install Bosch Icon 24A blades on both arms.
     
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  17. white out

    white out Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2010
    1,229
    Brilliant.
     
  18. white out

    white out Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2010
    1,229
    Finished up the equal length downpipes with merge today. . . sounds insane.

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    The deets:
    Equal length downpipes dropped 16.6lbs off the car.
    Made of stainless
    2" primary pipes, merged to 2.5", then bumped to 2.75" for X-pipe (so there is no reduction in exhaust diameter), then back to 2.5"

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    If you want to hear it, go check out my daily story on Instagram @lamborfuckinghini. The clips are too short to bother with YouTube and it's not complete yet. Remember, prior to this the clicks of the F1 paddles was louder than the exhaust inside the car.

    Next up, 2.5" Ti piping to the back of the car and a couple valves.
     
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  19. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    13,221
    MO
    Looks neat! Curious about drone when all said and done
     
  20. 0-60

    0-60 Rookie

    Dec 26, 2012
    31
    Bahrain
    Sounds amazing


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  21. hwyman

    hwyman Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2015
    329
    Canada / Los Angeles
    Damn Nick that was quick, great job!
     
  22. MRY

    MRY Formula Junior

    May 14, 2015
    384
    Monterey Peninsula
    Is the crossover and x pipe to synchronize the pressure waves with the firing order and promote better scavenging?

    If so, how much power have you calculated you will gain with the current camshafts? Are the current exhaust pulses colliding due to the firing order?

    If not colliding, and not for synchronizing the pulses, can you help me understand the purpose of the primary crossover pipe and the secondary crossover pipe (x-pipe)?

    In addition, have you calculated the reduction in velocity by increasing the diameter of the pipes? Will there be a net increase in flow? Or will the increase just handle more volume as the gas expands in the pipe and slows down?

    Thanks


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  23. brogenville

    brogenville Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 24, 2012
    2,020
    UK
    Full Name:
    Robin
    I’m a bit skeptical this will result in higher peak power, but maybe you’ll get more lower down. Genuinely love to be proven wrong though, and looking forward to the results regardless.


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  24. white out

    white out Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2010
    1,229
    Yes, this was designed to optimize the system while retaining the factory manifolds and primary cats. Crossover design was necessary to create a equal length exhaust.

    No clue on power gains and don't care as long as it outruns the Viper it replaced.

    As far as diameter, the 2.25" (at the largest point) OEM with crushed sections is hilarious for a high revving 5.75 liter V12. Not sure if this was to appease the “quiet GT car” or if the accounting department dictated. As far as specific details of velocity/scavenging ... again, I'm far too lazy to explain that to the forums.

    Increased diameter, equal length design and collector design will help with peak power (and additional power throughout the entire powerband) and sound without drone.

    We will see performance gains with 60-130 data logging. If anyone else wants to data log their car to compare, that would work.
     
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