$587.65? Really? | FerrariChat

$587.65? Really?

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by Chupacabra, Apr 27, 2011.

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  1. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2005
    3,523
    Behind a drum kit
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    Mr. Chupacabra
    That has been my average cost per hour for 94.1 hours over a year and a half in my plane. What are you guys seeing? Starting to think PPIs really are worthless and that I bought a winged lemon. Still love the damn thing, though!
     
  2. LouB747

    LouB747 Formula 3

    Apr 8, 2009
    2,123
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Lou Boyer
    Wow, what are you flying?
     
  3. 430man

    430man Formula Junior

    Jan 18, 2011
    489
    His profile says it's a 1972 Piper Arrow II... which last I checked rented for about a quarter that price. (cough sorry Chupacabra)
     
  4. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    Yep...my '72 Arrow. Renting would be much less offensive financially!!

    Did the math after my last $3,000 bill, which was preceded by a $1400 bill a month prior, which was preceded by...you get the picture.

    I think as soon as my commercial ticket is done (a few weeks), I'll cut my losses and dump this sucker. I never expected it to be cheap, but I didn't expect to buy the thing twice in this amount of time, either! Anyone who advised me that it may be a bad idea -- you get to say I told you so.

    I love having the plane and the freedom to just show up and go when I want, but I should have gone with something newer and/or less complex. The gear has been a pain from the get go.

    Caveat Emptor.
     
  5. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    I should have bought an L-39 and flown half as much :) As an added kicker -- I forgot to add my insurance into the hourly figure. ACK!
     
  6. Simon^2

    Simon^2 F1 World Champ

    Oct 17, 2005
    12,313
    At Sea Level
    Yup. learned my lesson long ago. Rent if you want to fly yourself. Charter if you want to take the family on vacation...

    I've run the numbers on fractional a few times, and for my use, it is much more expensive than charter.
     
  7. Etcetera

    Etcetera Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 7, 2003
    23,964
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    C6H14O5
    :eek:

    Truth to the adage that if it floats, flies or fidgets, rent it.
     
  8. toggie

    toggie F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 30, 2003
    19,036
    Virginia
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    Toggie (Ron)
    That sounds like an awfully high cost level.
    94.1 hours x $587.65 = $55,297.87.

    A big part is the fuel cost per hour.
    At approx. 12 gph and maybe $4.80 per gal, that would be $5420 of the total cost for 94.1 hours of fuel.

    I don't know if you tie-down or have a hangar, but even at $350 per month, that is only $4200 per year.

    Not sure what an annual on an Arrow costs, but let's use $6000 as an estimate.

    So, what was the remaining $39,677 spent on?

    Was it spent all on repairs?
    Or did you have some of the cost of airplane in the calculation (payments, cost of money, depreciation)?
     
  9. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    #9 Chupacabra, Apr 27, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2011
    Nope, no cost for airplane, insurance, or space. I did include gas, oil, and expendables like tires.

    At this point, I feel like I've darn near replaced everything. I had an $8500 gear repair right off the bat, and it just kept on going from there. Then, after all that, it was discovered that somewhere down the line, someone ignored a service bulletin after a different gear repair and didn't install strut brace webbing in the right main gear. I discovered cracks (after no hard landings) forming in the top of the wing as a result, and the gear well and support structure had to be completely rebuilt. Two turn coordinators, altimeter, directional gyro, more main gear surgery, transponder, several trim issues, some minor but still costly engine work, bad down and lock, shimmy dampener and bearings in the nose gear, bad mixture cable, replaced ignition chain (switch to starter), airbox rebuilt twice, re-glassed cowling after after cracks formed around oil door, replaced oil door, new window seals, door seals, door lock (on one trip, I got stuck in the plane and had to hand someone the keys through the window so I could climb out the baggage door because it just would not open outside or inside!!), new trim/flap handle housing cover...that's what I can remember right now. I could pull out the ever-growing tumor that is my maintenance records and list it all, but I'd be here all night.

    The bright side? My compressions are good. Oil analysis looks good. :)

    I almost sold it a while ago, but I decided it would never be cheap and that it had to get better after catching up a bit. I'm in a bit of a fix now -- do I cut and run or stick it out longer now that I've dumped all of this in it, hoping that I will finally end up with a sorted aircraft? I can't imagine it's just cursed. I have about 500 hours to go before prop and engine OH.
     
  10. 430man

    430man Formula Junior

    Jan 18, 2011
    489
    yikes... I'd sell that puppy and rent, but maybe that's just me. The way I look at it, there is no way it's ever going to magically become cheap enough that you beat renting at this point.
     
  11. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

    Mar 25, 2004
    6,375
    ATL/CHS/MIA
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    Jason
    Your costs are high because you've only flown 94 hours in 1.5 years. I fly over 300 hours a year.

    You have virtually the same costs whether you're flying or it's sitting in the hangar.
     
  12. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
    1,773
    Indianapolis
    Curious as to the airframe time and history on the aircraft. Lots of Arrows were used as complex trainers at FBO's on leaseback in those days. Because of the investment tax credit (10%) you could buy the airplane and, if you put it on leaseback, could get the tax credit right off the top. It was probably about a $40k airplane back then, so the owner got $4k back from his taxes that year. Add in annual depreciation and the fact that the basic maintanence, hangar and insurance became a deductible item there was powerful incentives to rent out your airplane. You could lose enough money on it for Uncle Sam to buy you an airplane. Been there, did that, there was an awful lot of that going on up until the 80's.

    The Arrow was a bit slow and underpowered, so it wasn't that much of a cross country airplane. Much like the Cutlass, a lot of those airplanes were used as complex traniners and saw a lot of hard hours. Even though the last couple of owners were good to it, it could have had a hard past life, and seen a lot of landings, and gear cycling. An hour in the pattern as a trainer isn't the same as an hour of cross country for a complex airpane. How many airframe hours were on your plane? Also a look at the log books would tell you a lot. If you were seeing 100 hr inspections it was being used as a rental. If there are only annuals, it wasn't.

    Another important lesson is that if you are going to buy a 40 year old airplane you need to become an expert on that type, or have someone who is really an expert look at it before you buy it. A typical A&P, unless he is VERY experienced in the type, isn't going to be able to spot the things that could be problems in a PPI (like the structural problems you had). You can get a good sense of where the engine and prop are, but there's just too many nooks and crannies in an airplane that can, as you have found, bite you in the butt. A real expert will be able to go right to problem areas and, knowing what to look for will be able to keep you from buying somebody else's problems.

    Sorry this was such an expensive experience. The other question is, was the price paid a "bargain" or was it a "market" price assuming that it was a sound airplane? Sometimes bargains aren't what they appear to be.
     
  13. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    #13 Chupacabra, Apr 28, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2011
    Well, the airframe is fairly high time at about 7200 hours. It did do some time as a trainer in a flight school, which I was concerned about at the time, but the mech's opinion was that the previous owner had replaced a lot of gear components and that it most likely was not a concern. Ha! Of course, a lot of these things are simply deferred maintenance items and a healthy dose of my crap luck. :)

    I feel pretty stupid as I always research things to death, and all things considered, the plane seemed like a decent deal to me. Because of the high time, seller's circumstances and a few smaller things that popped up on the inspection, I ended up getting it about $10K below market. I figured that difference would carry for a little while, but I was wrong.

    This Arrow is actually pretty swift -- for an Arrow. It has a LoPresti kit and is a 200 hp model, so it's not dreadfully slow, and I do enjoy flying it. I realize my CHP may be a bit lower with more hours, and it would have been great to have had the time and necessity to fly 300 hours last year, but it just didn't work out that way. Plus, when the S really hit the fan, it made me reluctant to dump anything into it in the form of petrol and other expendables.

    And BTW, I'm really not whining (not that I feel accused) -- I know I have no one but myself to blame here, and I've learned a hell of a lot about airplanes from this and had a lot of fun between panic attacks, so I can't say it is a total waste...but I can assure you my next aircraft will not be an older retractable! :)
     
  14. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
    1,773
    Indianapolis
    If you've done all the work and the plane is now in good shape, then just enjoy it for the next two or three years. The CPH will go down a lot if nothing else goes wrong and you've already swallowed the bitter pill...
     
  15. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    That's the way I've been leaning lately (today :) I hate to just abandon it before I've even logged a lot of time in it, and considering what I've put in up to now, it would suck to have done all that for nothing. If I can cruise relatively worry-free for a few years, it will be worth it. I just don't want any more huge surprises, though I can't be sure what could possibly go wrong now, short of the obvious -- TBO, etc. Knock on wood!
     
  16. NV Stig

    NV Stig Rookie

    Apr 12, 2010
    45
    Lake Tahoe, NV
    Got my Instrument in a hershey bar 2, and my Commercial in a '76 Turbo Arrow III, my buddies family still owns it. Great little bird! 150 knots true with the Lo Presti gap seals and other stuff, burning 12 to 13 gallond an hour. Look at the bright side, you didn't step into a Lance/ Saratoga. I trained over a thousand hours in those. The normall aspirated ones burned 18GPH, and the turbocharged ones burned 20GPH for 160KIAS. 5 to 7 gallons for a 10 knot increase, I'd stick with the Arrow. Also, the gear actuaters on a Lance tend to leak faster than the PA28R. the only thing I didn't like was that pneumatic emergence gear extension system. My buddies has the cutout STC for that system.
    If the plane meets your mission and makes you happy to fly, you made a good investment. That whole financial justification thing is like trying to rationalize, well, a Ferrari :)
    In the end, hurling metal at high speed is fun and cool. After the last couple of years, you could have spent that cash on real estate, investments, retirement, a Prius, etc. and really kicked yourself. At least you got some fun out of it and it held it's value or lost a smaller amount.
     
  17. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    Sep 30, 2005
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    Yeah, I think you're right. At least I now have a nice plane, even if I wasn't expecting to have to do so much so soon. I'm meeting with my mech next week to discuss what else may need to be done before TBO. Hopefully, she's finally sorted for a while...though today I found out that I do need yet another turn coordinator. This thing eats turn coordinators like candy, I don't get it!! :)
     

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