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599/430 Prices Crashing

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Napolis, Oct 13, 2008.

  1. bizz

    bizz Formula Junior

    May 26, 2008
    352
    Redwood City, CA
    Full Name:
    joe B
    I knew there was a problem when I saw not one but THREE Ferraris at the domestic auctions on Friday. I've seen three at this auction in the past 2 years.

    Granted, most of these are Ford/Chevy dealers who took Ferraris in on trade a year ago, and are now pooping bricks.

    There were three:

    a 2003 360- car went for $97K (rough car, paint on the hood and rear 1/4 panel)
    a 1999 (or maybe 98) 355 Spider for $44K
    and the killer? A 2006 F430 went for $152K. The 430 was red/tan

    And if that wasn't bad enough, a Gallardo went for at $79K. 19K miles, no paint, fresh service, fresh tires. Don't know the year. If anyone is interested I can get auction results and point in the direction- but mostly it was mouth-drooling wholesalers praying for a car they could buy $20K below book for a quick flip.

    I saw 2006 Ford Expeditions for $8500. And there was an Audi R8 for MSRP, no sale. And a Nissan GT-R that sold no reserve @ just $1000 over MSRP.

    Holy bottom-falling out batman!

    If you are liquid right now, you can get some high end inventory!
     
  2. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    I got one serious response and have put him in touch. I hope it works out for both of them. Keep in mind the wholesale price moves around very quickly. I had the conversation on Sunday and posted today.

    Once again I have NO $ interest in any of this. I'm only trying to help FCHAT members who are real buyers find a car for a low price.
     
  3. AMA328

    AMA328 F1 Rookie

    Nov 12, 2002
    2,518
    ABQ-67me68-OKC :)
    #78 AMA328, Oct 13, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2008
    People just gots to make them thar margin calls, at any price...

    I too, will be very interested to see where this goes. Have seen exactly -one- 599 available now from
    an authorized dealer that I am really wondering about...

    Six months from now, if I have the resources, and the market keeps coming to me, maybe there's
    a deal. However, you can bet your ass I'll only go into a deal like this ALL Ca$h...
     
  4. bizz

    bizz Formula Junior

    May 26, 2008
    352
    Redwood City, CA
    Full Name:
    joe B
    +1

    Today's floorplan audit=tomorrow's fire sale.

    Seriously I love all these dealers who say "we can't sell it at a loss." That may be the case. You won't have to sell it at a loss, you can let the bankruptcy custodian do it for you. Problem solved.
     
  5. FLU

    FLU Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2008
    561
    Full Name:
    Flu
    one would think the recent "new prices" would make me cry since i bought my 06 430 just a few months ago before the drastic changes really happenned and for much MORE then 170k. but i rarely ever sell anything i buy and my intent is to drive and have fun with the car as it's always been my dream to own a Fcar. So, im not crying - on the contrary im smilin, as all this will pass in time. (prays)
     
  6. 275gtb6c

    275gtb6c Formula 3
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    Oct 30, 2006
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    #81 275gtb6c, Oct 13, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2008
    Jim,

    your music taste is so 70's (after Bob Dylan, John Lennon........)

    ps todays raise': jump to final crash or back on track?? I think the latter, I am not that negative about prices and consequences (sorry for this part of ferrarichat, I go back to my vintage corner...)
    ciao
    Oscar
     
  7. flaviaman

    flaviaman Formula Junior

    Jul 26, 2005
    288
    Whistler
    Full Name:
    Gregg
    Having been in the Ferrari biz when the market crashed in 87, and through the great hype of the late 80's I can tell you that when times are tough, very few people buy cars. The day the market crashed in 87 I was negotiating to purchase an 82 BBi for 70K as I recall. I got cold feet given the market, a week later the seller offered me the car for $50K, I suspect it could have been had for less. Business more or less stops and you hope the service / parts department will pay the bills. We a new F40 in stock from 91 to 94, many stores had 91 TR's instock for years. We had 348's in stock that had several birthdays. Most banks do not like to floor old-age units.

    And used cars are worse, I suspect many dealers are sweating over the number of 360's / 430's they have in stock.

    I am no longer in the Ferrari business, but I can tell you the Porsche business has come to a crashing halt....and I've had a few orders canceled with people walking away from sizable deposits. Interestingly enough, low and mid-level MBZ and BMW are still selling moderately well, however I suspect most of those car are sold as "transportation", which everyone needs.

    Cheers
     
  8. Bluehinder

    Bluehinder Formula Junior

    Aug 9, 2005
    861
    Colorado
    While there is no doubt sales are hurt given market conditions, I think this doom and gloom story is not entirely believable. I'll believe it when brand new delivery red/tan 430 Spiders sit unsold, or Scud's are available at msrp.

    Personally, I'd love a chance to pick up a Scud at sticker. The time to buy straw hats is in the winter. This is a good buying opportunity for those who have conservatively managed their money.
     
  9. JCR

    JCR F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 14, 2005
    6,033
    H-Town, Tejas
    Well, your attitude is much different than most of the other buyers, er..., uh... flippers. And now you have further justification to rack up the miles and enjoy the car.
     
  10. absent

    absent F1 Veteran
    Lifetime Rossa

    Nov 2, 2003
    8,083
    illinois
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    mark k.
    It's not nearly as bad in real life as some say/predict here.
    Obviously the high premiums on regular production cars like 430 and 599 are gone but these mid $200k numbers on the latter are not a rule but exception .
    I don't doubt Jim saying he knows a dealer willing to sell a car or two at these figures but it is still an exception particular to that location only(maybe East Coast market is more affected by all these bankers and analysts being laid off?)
    Btw,just traded a 599 toward a Scuderia and I am very happy with my trade-in value (not even close to numbers talked about in this thread)
     
  11. VTChris

    VTChris F1 World Champ

    Aug 21, 2005
    13,009


    How's the 'Older' Porsche business.? 86-89 911 Turbo's to be exact :)
     
  12. REMIX

    REMIX F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Yeah I too would like a translation of the Dylan lyrics. Wasn't doing LSD in the 60's, only a twinkle in my papa's eye, so I don't know what it means. :)

    RMX
     
  13. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
    Honorary

    Dec 5, 2001
    6,485
    Grandview NY
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    Herr Prof.
    Just wait. This is the tip of the iceberg. First Ferraris. Then, Ford Excursions and Lincoln Navigators. Me, I'm keeping my own counsel on this but when you see the monster SUV market hit bottom, somebody is going to corner that market and make a killing. :)
     
  14. Bill Sawyer

    Bill Sawyer Formula 3

    Feb 26, 2002
    2,108
    Georgia
    You're welcome to it!
     
  15. DGS

    DGS Three Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 27, 2003
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    DGS
    It probably already has hit bottom. Once the gas prices drop, people will return to surrounding themselves with four tons of plastic, so they can pretend that they're "safe" without having to actually drive the beast.
     
  16. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
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    Dave
    That's like saying you can't sell stocks for a loss. I have to explain to non biz people that a dealer can't sit there asking 200K for his cars when the competitors are at 175K. Better to take the loss and replace it with something you CAN make money on. Amazing how few people understand this basic concept.

    Dave
     
  17. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
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    Dave

    I don't know. When the oil spikes of the 70's killed the domestic gas guzzler market, it stayed dead---forever.

    Dave
     
  18. REMIX

    REMIX F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Ford GTs for 100k? Anyone? Anyone? I can only dream...

    RMX
     
  19. silver-gt

    silver-gt Guest

    Mar 13, 2008
    47
    I have been on the fence on a F430 and have interest in buying a black or silver coupe but only if i steal something (just being honest and not trying to be disrespectful), i am a cash buyer and can wire immediately upon a PPI but overall I think prices continue to move down as we enter winter (and a recession). If anyone has a low mile 430 (sub 3k miles) and looking to sell PM me.
     
  20. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
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    Dave
    And even those of us who kept/drove the cars may not be so willing when the depreciation begins at what we pay as opposed to 30-40K more than we paid. I'm not sure if I would have taken delivery on my 430 under today's circumstances. For one thing, I didn't even know if I would like it until I wrote a check and drove away. Knowing that I could make money if I didn't was a big inducement. Now, 3+ years later, I still have it and don't care anymore. Maybe it's worth 20% less than I paid (probably 1/3 less than it was worth at the time) if I had to sell it this week but I paid cash and the money is gone from my mind so life is good.

    Dave

    PS: I figure last weeks equity market meltdown took 10-15K of the value off my 430. I don't think today's rally put it back!
     
  21. JTranfield

    JTranfield Formula Junior

    Dec 29, 2003
    665
    NYC, London
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    J Tranfield

    Ford GTs seem to be holding up well so far.
     
  22. silver-gt

    silver-gt Guest

    Mar 13, 2008
    47
    doubt that one! I'd buy a few more if they ever got there.
     
  23. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,685
    as not meaning to hijack, but I find the responses to some of these 'crashing 430/599' cars interesting as it is somehow tied to the market, like the only people who can/should/do buy are stock-gambling-type-a persons.

    SO: since the market went up about 1k points today, I guess the prices will instantly jump like the DOW. Interesting. Ferrari's are somewhat like the above group, treating them like shares and flipping them short? Then there are many in for the 'long haul' an...well, to them as I subscribe: Bargain time.

    snap em up....
     
  24. REMIX

    REMIX F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oh well.

    It's my dream car...would love to see them come down to where I can maybe think about affording one. Possibly someday.

    RMX
     
  25. silver-gt

    silver-gt Guest

    Mar 13, 2008
    47
    #100 silver-gt, Oct 13, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2008
    I think the issue is that alot of people are invested in equities, and the amount of their stock investments drives their overall consumer sentiment dramatically. If you look at consumer sentiment and car sales the correlation is very high. Having said that, as stocks go down sales do as well...issue here is that they dont rebound as much - and even with todays rally we are only back to last weeks levels. Indices are still down 30% this year. couple that with the fact that financing costs have gone through the roof and lending for exotics is non-existent you have a bad situation for exotic cars and an even worse situation for dealers who now have expensive floorplan financing, 09s coming in, canceled orders, high inventories they paid more than current market for and it makes for a bad situation overall. People need the money now and it looks bad for exotics for a while.

    Another issue is look at the buyers - most made alot of money recently in hedge funds/trading/finance or real estate both of which are having HORRIBLE years. Others were probably doing ok but used alot of leverage to buy these cars which isnt happening. Overall makes for an illiquid market with more sellers (many forced sellers) than buyers...hence pricing moves down, dramatically. I'm a car guy so im not making a financial bet but I would expect a GREAT deal on my 430 if i find one, if not I'll wait. I'm a quick cash buyer and someone will likely hit my bid.
     

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