599 gated stick manual Official picture thread

I saw that. It was just a link. No other negative comments. Despicable for C&B to sensor useful comments like that.

 

Excactly. Only a link and absolutely no negative comment. We all here should comment on this Cars & Bids site. Bring a Trailer censors make the same. Shame on them both.

 

I just realized, from comments to the Cars & Bids listing, that the woman who made the second Youtube video that's linked to in the auction car's description is also the nominal seller of the car. She is Colleen Sheehan, the daughter of Michael Sheehan. Michael Sheehan is a famous finder, broker, and seller of Ferraris, going back 50 years. I believe he's a Ferrarichat member and also the owner of Ferraris Online. Ferraris Online is either the owner or the consignee of the auction car. Here's Ferraris Online's own listing: https://ferraris-online.com/cars/2007-ferrari-599-gtb-6-speed-conversion-151605/.

That said, I don't find anything questionable about Colleen's Youtube video, or Cars & Bids use of the video. Well, maybe Cars & Bids should disclose the fact that the creator of the second Youtube video is also the nominal seller of the auction car. But if anything, her role, and Michael Sheehan's role, in this auction makes the descriptions of the car more trustworthy than a one-off sale by a private owner, because their reputations are so much on the line.

 

If this Michel Sheehan is "a famous Ferrari discoverer, broker and salesman for 50 years", he doesn't have much honor to sell such a thing.

Ask the big @Marcel Massini what he would think of such a kludge...

 

After getting better acquainted with this Grigio Silverstone 599 #151605 I kind of wish I had not got involved myself. But I would characterize Ferraris Online's role as a humanitarian mission as much as a profit-making one. To explain: According to the Carfax included in the Cars & Bids listing, in January 2019 this car, after eleven years in the hands of the original owner and with a scant 834 miles on the clock, was sold at auction to Wichita Falls [Texas] Ford Lincoln Mercury. In or before January 2020 Owner #2 bought the car. Also in or before January 2020, EAG was engaged to do the three-pedal conversion that EAG memorialized in the $84,599 invoice that I included in Post #579 to this thread.

Although your mileage may vary on the wisdom or legitimacy of these three-pedal conversions, I am willing to credit Owner #2's choice as having been motivated by a good faith desire to enjoy the time-honored experience of owning and driving a manual transmission V12 Ferrari GT, but in this case with 612 available horsepower. Sadly for Owner #2, it was not in the cards for EAG to deliver this result in a driver-ready form. Fast forward to the 22:40 mark ofthis Youtube video to experience the result that Owner #2 got from EAG. First, there is a steady noise whenever the throwout bearing is released, even in neutral. Although the video does not say so, in a 599 the driveshaft and related components are rotating at 900 rpm when the TO bearing is released in neutral. Therefore I suspect that this noise was the sound of the shifter rod making unwanted contact with the torque tube. Second, with the car in second gear and the throttle opened up, there is a hellish racket arising from the shift lever rattling against the shift gate. In the video you can hear the driver say "It vibrates against off [sic] the torque tube heavily."

This is where the plot thickens. The Youtube video in the link above is the work of a Youtube creator named Miguel. He posted this video to Youtube in or about August 2021. In the video Miguel interviews the three co-founders of Nomad Engineering, an LLC located in a suburb of San Antonio Texas. (San Antonio was EAG's home as of January 2020.) These three are Matt Devine, Chris Ramos, and Jay Thompson. In the video they state that they were independent contractors of EAG when #151605 was in the EAG shop, and that they personally designed all the one-off conversion parts and ECU programming. They also state that they left EAG before they had perfected #151605's conversion, and that Art at EAG released the car to Owner #2 in the condition depicted at the end of the video, hellish racket and all. The fact that the Cars & Bids listing includes the EAG invoice without any limiting qualification or explanation implies that Owner #2 paid in full EAG's $84,599 bottom line.

In the video the three guys state further that Owner #2 followed them to their new venture, Nomad Engineering, to correct the problems with the EAG work. In this Youtube video -- posted up by Miguel a few days or weeks prior to the August 2021 interview with the Nomad guys -- he visits #151605 as it sat on Nomad's shop floor, with the correction/perfection work in progress. He states that Nomad had designed and fabricated a new carbon fiber console (shown installed), an actuator assembly (shown lying on a workbench) and a clutch pedal (shown as a rough casting still in need of machining and installation). He also states that Matt does "alot" of the software the conversion requires. Miguel also states that Nomad might fabricate a new shifter gate. In the driving clip at 22:40 of the first Youtube video in this post (video #2 chronologically), we can see that they did do this. Specifically, the EAG gate has a "crooked 4" reverse gear gate, while the reverse gate on the Nomad version is parallel to the other three gates.

I think Miguel is confused as to how much of the hardware that Nomad used was already on the EAG version of this car when it arrived in the Nomad shop. But regardless of the precise details in this regard, the parts and labor that Nomad did furnish were not furnished for free. I daresay that Nomad added a minimum of $20,000 to Owner #2's conversion costs.

And get this: In a comment to the first video in this post, someone with the username diamante2005 wrote this:

"The 599 was another successful conversion! It was shipped back to the customer out in Cali last week. Owner is beyond happy and relieved it was taken out of the hands of what's left of eag and done right. Jay and Matt were the backbone of all the successful conversions they did previously at eag. (Over 80 of them)"
​

This comment is time stamped "One year ago," i.e., in or before January 2022. (Given the August 2021 date of the video itself, the actual date of this comment was likely to have been in or about September 2021.) Yet we know, from the line items in the Cars & Bids description of #151605, and the two Francorchamps of America invoices dated March 2022, that are included in the Cars & Bids photo gallery, Owner #2 has had to shell out an additional $19,551 to perfect Nomad Engineering's efforts to perfect EAG's $84,599 work product. Specifically according to the Cars & Bids description, "Modifications reported by the seller include . . . additional transmission and electronics work performed by Francorchamps of America, and an aftermarket center console." Another line item states "March 2022: Coupler, transmission rod, shift rod, damper, and center console replaced by Francorchamps of America."

In short, Owner #2 has experienced the trials of Job in trying to get a serviceable result with this conversion, and at a cost in the range of $125,000, stretching out over a 27-month period. This is why I see a humanitarian act on the part of Ferraris Online in its efforts to rid Owner #2 of this burden. In the case of Job, all he had to do in the end was to confess his ignorance and repent, and his former prosperity and riches were fully restored to him. Owner #2 is unlikely to be so lucky.

 

My 599 was converted with Ferrari OEM parts and by a Ferrari dealer with full invoice (parts and labour). It costs €45,000. There was never any vibration or some other problem. The original manual gated 599 also don't have problems. On the other hand, when unqualified people try to tinker and do not change the necessary OEM parts, they spend a lot of time and therefore require a lot of money for a more than poor result.

Someone said about the center console (and I consider this an insightful comment): "the poor fit and finish (and yes, the button mounting that looks like it is about to fall off) makes me wonder about the quality of the rest of the conversion under the skin......."

 

Other information you may be interested in regarding my ex OEM converted giallo 599 #146539, I bought it for €200,000 in 2018 and resold it for €200,000 in 2021. So no profit for me and even a loss as I added GTO OEM rims and a Capristo exhaust. Total: more than 12000 €.

 

The conclusion of my personal story is as follows: I bought a manual gated converted 599 without knowing it, I discovered it afterwards. It had been converted with OEM parts and drived very well without vibration or other problems. But these converted cars are of no interest to current or future collectors because they are not "original". So in my opinion, their value will rise very little, or stagnate or even possibly worst decrease in the future, with OEM parts or not. And today, I don't want transformed cars any more because that does not have any interest for me and for a lot of ferraristas. Only those who want eventually have fun could have interest, but it is very expensive paid to have little fun.

 

Off topic, sorry: once again a converted car for sale, not a 599 but a 430 Scuderia. Conversion just done for only a few months and already for sale.....

Has it become a mania to convert Ferrari models to manual and sell them right after?

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-ferrari-430-scuderia-23/

 

For me it's absolute strange, what prices people pay for these factory spec and conversion manuals.

But it's the simple rule of supply and demand.

In the past the demand for these manuals was like zero (no 2 % were ordered as manual).
Nobody wants to get a manual which was far away from the technical level and the know how from this time.
Nearly everybody paid about 12.000€ more for the F1 spec.
I believe Ferrari had not much interest to produce manual shifted cars, which would explain the poor software evolution in these manuals.

Today a strange hype like "back to the past" is present and much people wants to hop in this hype.
And these perhaps 5% of the people who wants one of the 2% factory manuals + the 3% conversions which will be made, pay the money.
When this demand is fullfilled, what happens then ???
The demand goes down, the hype will end.

Hope in the future nobody gets the idea to update a double clutch gearbox or F1 single clutch gearbox into an F40

Sorry for my bad english/grammar.

Daniel

 

A question of supply and demand? I do not think so. IMO, most of these people think more about the possible financial added value that they could realize rather than the real pleasure of a manual gated gearbox. But these conversions will, in my opinion, have no particular value in the future. Especially when almost nothing is original.

If a non OEM but customized part breaks in 15 years or if the flashed ECU fails, how will you replace it? Will EAG or Exoticars still exist in 15, 20, 30 years??

My friend, it's not a simple question of supply and demand, believe me, it's just a question of money for many of them. Why would you invest money in a conversion to finally have the best car of your life, all this to resell it 6 months later??? I really do not understand... Do you suddenly have another exciting project?

In the past, owning a manual transmission was almost a defect. Today, it's suddenly a very significant advantage, you know what I mean?... And if a potential buyer is a beginner or non-connoisseur who knows nothing about these cars, original or not, you can imagine the carnage.....

About your question "these perhaps 5% of the people who wants one of the 2% factory manuals + the 3% conversions....." : Connoisseurs do exactly know the difference between a factory original car and a non-original converted car. Thus, the value of the "originals" will perhaps increase while the value of the "counterfeits" will certainly stagnate or potentially decrease

 

You probably stand a better chance of finding replacements for failed conversion parts than the OEM ones that are no longer made. After all, Ferrari refusing to manufacture these parts is what partially gave rise to the conversion companies.

I am in agreement though of how it is strange so many people are selling their cars immediately after converting them. For a little while converted cars were selling at decent prices. Now as more become available, the prices seem to be dropping.

 

100% agree with the 2nd paragraph.

Speaking of parts, where can you find replacement parts for failed conversion parts if the companies no longer exist? IMO, I think it will be as difficult as finding OEM parts; and for missing OEM parts, I can imagine the factory has all the technical drawings to eventually remanufacture. But if you don't have an S/N listed as ...., no chance of getting those parts or any help from the factory. For example, Enzo parts are still available, but if you don't own an Enzo, ciao bye bye....

 

As far as I know, NLA is NLA. At no point has any supplier I've worked with asked for my vin to verify i own a car that the parts go on. That being said, perhaps it is different with an FNA dealership, but i doubt it. Even if conversion companies go out of business, their parts will still be floating around like OEM ones no longer being made. If the demand becomes high enough, like it is now, other companies will step in to start manufacturing them again.

 

Repair parts for any modern exotic car are unlikely to be available in 20 or 30 years. A replacement battery pack for a hybrid supercar with a production run of a couple thousand units? Forget about it. All the little plastic bits and pieces, their resins continuously off-gassing until they get brittle and weak and break? In 20 years they're all NLA, every one. Specifically with respect to the conversion of a Ferrari F1 to a three pedal setup, the three pedal is much more likely to be serviceable in the event of failure. Throwout bearings, master cylinders, shifter internals, shift rods: These components are fungible commodities, built the same way for 60 years and counting. By contrast the hydraulic rams and ECUs essential to an electro-hydraulic system are make and model specific. It may be possible in the year 2040 that F1 repairs can be cobbled together without OE parts, but if you're in that situation the challenge is no different than it will be with a converted car. It is also the case, in the present tense, that a broken three pedal system is going to be much cheaper to repair than an F1.

 

Yes.

 

About me, I ordered Ferrari parts and they asked me for my S/N to check compatibility.... Then, yes, remanufacturing or not, we'll see.... Porsche has a classic department, Mercedes too . Maybe one day Ferrari will open a real classic department.

@180 Out the F1 system is quite simple when you look inside. It is very easy to repair it and does not require ultra specific parts. And I think we will still make hydraulic pumps in 100 years.... About ECUs, F1 and manual ECUs are specific.

 

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Because this is a picture thread, here's a screen cap of Normal Guy Supercar Dan interviewing Chris (no last name stated), the CEO of European Auto Group since about one month ago. The full 22 minute video is here. We also see at least two 599s in the frame. The red one is the prototype for the EAG cable-shift conversion kit, currently offered for sale by Dan's NG Supercars used car dealership. The black one is one of nine customer cars that Chris states will be out the door "this week or next week." Given the lapse between Dan's tapings and the editing and posting of the videos, I take "this week" to mean the week of January 8. This is surely good news for any of the Ferrarichatterers reading this whose 599s have been doing time in EAG limbo.

Chris comes from a high-end bespoke firearms manufacturer, so he brings many transferable skills to his EAG job. The news Chris shares with Dan includes that EAG is set to order, from outside suppliers, enough EAG designed parts to put together between 100 and 200 599 cable-shift conversion kits. (Chris sounds like it will be the 200 number, because unit pricing drops so much with a 2x order.) Once the orders are placed it will take 45 days for the suppliers to fab the parts and ship them to EAG. The full kits will be complete in about 60 days from now. EAG will install kits in as many customer cars as it can handle -- promising a 60-90 day turnaround -- and will also make kits available to do-it-yourselfers, including through Dan's normalguysupercars.com parts store. No pricing is mentioned. I would ballpark it between $35K and $45K. The point is that these 100-200 kits should be enough to offer a viable route to a gated shifter experience for many 599 owners, maybe enough to saturate the market for the time being.

At the same time EAG will also be fabricating 20 units of the same parts that it is outsourcing. But with just one 5-axis CNC machine, EAG is not capable of doing hundreds of units. Nine of the 20 EAG-fabbed are going into the existing customer 599s, with the remainder presumably also going into complete kits.

Chris states that EAG presently has a single 612 and "a couple" 575s in its possession, and that EAG is developing cable conversion kits for these models as well. Although Dan does not ask, it would make sense for EAG also to sell 575 and 612 kits to DIYers.

EAG is also focusing on the completion of scores of customer 360s and 430s; he states they have four storage facilities full of these customer cars. More good news for Ferrarichatters who are also EAG customers.

Finally, Chris says that EAG is moving into Lamborghinis next, and down the road the fabrication of NLA Ferrari parts for older cars. Chris also says something about conversions for "newer Ferraris," which could only mean DCT cars, since the 599 is the newest model with an F1. For these purposes EAG also now owns a carbon fiber 3-D printer and a 3-D titanium printer, as well as the CNC machine. EAG has also hired a full time mechanical engineer and a part time machinist, who is able to program the CNC machine remotely.

Also, NGS Dan and four or five of his Austin gearhead buddies always do a 90 minute live Youtube video on Thursday nights. Tonight the group will include Chris and EAG Art. Tonight's video will start at 8:00 Central Standard Time (1:00 p.m. Friday in Sydney, 3:00 a.m. in Rome, 2:00 a.m. in London.) Don't stay up late, European chatterers; these Thursday night videos stay posted up to Youtube indefinitely. Here is the link.

 

EAG has a converted 458 with working manettino etc...

 

612s and 575s do not need a cable shifter. The rods that have been used in the OEM models work fine. The 599 is the only one with a rod clearance issue.

 

575's sure do work fine with rods. 599's with rods installed by specialists work beautifully as well.

 

On the other hand, if you're a startup looking to put together hundreds of conversion kits across all three models, and you've already finalized the parts for a cable-shift 599 kit, it only makes sense to use the same shifter tower on all three.

By the way, the auction for the converted 599 #151605, that's been the subject of much of the last couple pages of this thread, ended today with reserve not met and a top bid of $221,500. Now that the market's about to be flooded with 100-200 599s with installed EAG cable conversion kits, that seems like a good price. ($160K for an F1 599 + $40,000 for an EAG kit + $5,000 labor = $205,000.)

An interesting side note is that ngsupercars -- NGS Dan's used car dealership -- was one of the two participants in the final exchange of bids. Ngsupercars dropped out at $220,599, which Dan must believe to be the top wholesale price for #151605 car. (To be precise, with the buyer's premium of $4,500, plus approximately $2,000 for shipping from Costa Mesa CA to Austin TX, this car would be into ngsupercars for about $227,000.) The interesting part is that ngsupercars' inventory already includes the red cable-shifted 599 that's next to Dan in the EAG shop in my screen shot in Post #618. Would it be fair to describe Dan as agnostic about rods vs. cables?

 

Really good stuff from EAG. Yeah, it’s going to shift the market, but I couldn’t care less. Fundamentally, I think these are better, more fun, more engaging cars as manuals, so more power to them. Best thing I heard there was that they have stopped accepting more cars for a few months to get onto an even keel. I suspect things will slow a bit as the “investors” looking to convert their cars and flip them fall by the wayside. But I am confident that there will be a long term market for manual conversions. Frankly it’s only a matter of time before they start getting turned out of China for a few thousand dollars, so again glad to see that EAG are diversifying.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

Very cool