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612 shift times

Discussion in '612/599' started by QtrItalian, Apr 3, 2021.

  1. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
    80
    I know from reading these threads that the shift times on the 612 were steadily improved. If I have it correctly the '05s were 180 ms. The notation changed from "F1" to "F1S" in '06 and I think the shift time was shortened to 150 ms. By the OTOs this improved further (maybe 100 ms if I remember right)? Also the early HGTS package also allowed 150 ms or better (120 ms?) in sport mode. Again hopefully I am summarizing ok. So my question is (seeing that there is a big price difference on the non OTOs vs OTOs) does anyone have any experience with updating the shift times on an older, even '05 model? In other words, is this simply a software reflash, aftermarket software, something hardware-wise with the F1 pump? I imagine it has nothing to do with the gearbox itself unless there were synchro revisions....Any insight from anyone in the know is appreciated. I don't see this discussed much before.
    - Dan.
     
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  3. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    33,452
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Original 612 F1A system, 180 ms min shift time, HGTS/HGTC ~160 ms, all late interim 612s 125 ms, Sessanta/OTO F1 Superfast 1, 100 ms. Early in 612 production, Ferrari went from Motronic 7.1.1 to 7.3.2, so you have to see which you have to see what updates are possible.
     
  4. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
    80
    Thanks. On the '06 they denote it F1-S. Is this an upgraded 125 ms time or is the notation somewhat meaningless?
     
  5. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    33,452
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    F1S is a mode and has no effect on min shift time seen in Sport at high revs.
     
  6. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
    80
    Not to belabor this but on the '05 the pushbutton on console has a car picture and "auto" whereby the '06 and later have :"F1-s" and "auto" and there's a "F1S" which is displayed on the color LCD on dash but I haven't seen that displayed on a '05.. I am wondering if this is a difference of any sort. I may be reading too much into nuanced changes.
     
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  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    33,452
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    The owner's manual has a good discussion on what the F1-S button does in later 612s. If you push the Sport button on the steering wheel, you get both a Sport warning light and F1-S on the TFT display and you get faster shifting, stiffer suspension response, and less ASR intervention. If you are in Normal mode and depress the F1-S button, you get faster shifting (same as in Sport mode) and the suspension and ASR remain in Normal mode. If you depress the F-1S button while in Sport, the F1-S lamp will go out and you will get Normal (slow) gear shifting and stiff suspension and less ASR intervention.

    Think of the F1-S button as a way to provide a Schumacher soft shock setting. If she is warm and you want faster shifting, but the road is bumpy or it is slippery, push the F1-S button and you will get only faster shifting. Probably not smart if it is slippery, though.

    F1-S does not change the overall minimum shift time, just turns fast shifting on and off.
     
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  9. brogenville

    brogenville Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 24, 2012
    911
    UK
    Full Name:
    Robin
    I’ve said it before, but the quoted shift times are one number that represents the best possible shift. This only occurs under certain circumstances, and does not represent all of the improvements made to smoothness of clutch take up.

    The other thing is that I still don’t believe there is any me 7.1.1 / 7.3.2 difference, despite what some of the Ferrari documentation states. I’ve now had many Ferrari ecu’s go across my workbench, including some from a 599 I have right now, and the Bosch part number has been the same on all of them. The software recognises them all as 7.3.2.

    There is a different Bosch part number used on later 599’s, but having discussed with 360trev, the differences inside are trivial.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  10. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    15,598
    12 years later (09 OTO) i have to say by todays standards the car does perfectly fine in automatic driving around town and under throttle it does just fine using the paddles. its no FF but its quicker than id ever be.
     
  11. Cobraownr

    Cobraownr Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 6, 2008
    885
    Edgewater, MD
    Full Name:
    Donald Silawsky
    As Taz has noted a number of times, the F1 transmissions in the 612 OTOs (and presumably Sessantas) are different mechanically from earlier versions by having a 599 twin plate dry clutch and 599 gearbox case with 612 ratios and parts. How much this facilitated decreased shift times through the TCU changes I don't know, but it does raise the question whether reduced shift times would have been possible without revising the internals.

    As ttforcefed says in the post prior to this one, shifting in the OTO (and Sessanta; I have experience in both) is quite acceptable. It becomes even better if a suggestion by Taz (we're lucky he doesn't charge for his advice!) to feather the throttle slightly when upshifting with the paddles is followed. It still isn't quite as "smooooth as buttah" or as quick as a DCT, but it is perfectly in keeping with the Grand Touring character of the car.
     
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  13. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
    80
    Thanks all. I probably shouldn't focus too much on this but it is instructive...so thanks.... The difference of 100 ms vs 180 ms is really something like 1/12th of a second difference so while I suppose some improvement in clutch take up is possible and may actually help it feel smoother. But, in the heat of action the time improvement alone seems neglible. I guess the only other parameter which might differ is if the earlier cars had a delay in instituting an upshift. Anyhow I should drive a few...

    Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk
     
  14. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    33,452
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    Terry H Phillips
    The difference between a full throttle upshift at 180 ms and at 100 ms is a giant gulf with a lot of technology overlaid. One is almost twice as fast. The next improvement to 60 ms with Superfast 2 in the Scud/16M and 599 GTO was another big leap. DCTs are even quicker, if not as dramatic.
     
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  15. powersteer

    powersteer Rookie

    Sep 13, 2020
    15
    Will it be possible for us to "upgrade" to twin plate clutch of the OTO? Maybe together with the TCU?
     
  16. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    33,452
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    Never impossible, but the diameter of the twin plate clutch is much smaller than the earlier single disc used in a multitude of Ferrari models. If you mean sort of like a direct exchange, no. Remember the OTOs also went to a 599 gearbox case to better match up with the twin disc components like the torque tube. Would likely be easier to try and go to the 125 ms TCU all the interim 612s used, but I am not sure of compatibility between early Motronic ECUs and that TCU and other ECUs.
     
  17. powersteer

    powersteer Rookie

    Sep 13, 2020
    15
    Sounds like clutch upgrade might be too risky to try. Are the TCU firmwares flashable?

     
  18. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    33,452
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    The TCUs are reflashable if someone has the correct data and the hardware matches what is in the upgrade. Late 360 TCUs are reflashed to CS spec frequently by Eric355.
     
  19. brogenville

    brogenville Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 24, 2012
    911
    UK
    Full Name:
    Robin
    Was going to say exactly the same thing - these TCU's are flashable in a number of different ways, but the problem is that you need to have the upgraded firmware to hand. Might be worth asking Eric if he ever managed to acquire it?
     
  20. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    33,452
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Eric has the 575M HGTC firmware because I sent him my HGTC TCU to copy. Still need to see if it will work on my 575M without having to put in updated Motronic ECUs.

    Not sure he has any 612 firmware. Has not been much call for that. There could be compatibility issues with early Motronics and later TCUs/ECUs, but not sure anyone has done much research on it.
     
  21. FIN612

    FIN612 Karting

    May 10, 2017
    87
    Finland
    This is TCU from a 08 612 GTC just before OTO. You can see S/W version #. The 07 cars have too last digits: 31 . [​IMG]
     
  22. [gTr]

    [gTr] Formula Junior

    Mar 11, 2008
    810
    Hamburg, Germany
    Given all the hardware changes you will need to make and the work required to make it all work (and the limited ability to recoup this cost on resale) I am almost certain that it will be cheaper to purchase a 612 OTO or to simply convert it into a manual.
    As to the difference between the OTO and pre-OTO cars, multiple owners have reported that the OTO cars are much improved in AUTO mode (as compared to earlier cars) and behave much better in traffic.
     
  23. MRY

    MRY Formula Junior

    May 14, 2015
    347
    Monterey Peninsula
    Yes, driving an OTO compared to an earlier car is very different.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  24. QtrItalian

    QtrItalian Karting

    Jan 22, 2021
    80
    If the TCU is responsible for shift times...I assume it is by being responsible for the total time elapse in activating and inactivating the F1 pump. If so then this action/deactivation is what is timed. While some mechanical improvements were mated to this process I wonder if anyone has cracked the hexadecimal code and attempted to shorten this to within the OTO range? I suppose if it were possible a probable limitation would be acceptable clutch wear. While I'm rambling has there been any reports or data on same vs different clutch change intervals between pre and post-OTO (probably too few 612s and many have had too numerous owners by now to say)?
     
  25. F612

    F612 Formula Junior

    Feb 5, 2018
    487
    Leeds,AL
    Full Name:
    David D. Hood
    The OTOs have two clutch disks of a smaller diameter than previous cars.
    The smaller diameter results in a reduced rotational inertia making quicker shifts easier.
    Not sure you could duplicate this with the larger diameter single clutch.
     

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