612 timing belt access question/help | FerrariChat

612 timing belt access question/help

Discussion in '612/599' started by TrojanFan, Aug 12, 2018.

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  1. TrojanFan

    TrojanFan F1 Rookie
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    #1 TrojanFan, Aug 12, 2018
    Anyone have some pointers on accessing the timing belts? Do the radiators need to be removed from the car? I'm attempting to remove the cross member to give me better access to the timing belt covers and the accessory belts. On the cross member I have the side hex bolts out but the top bolt is blocked by the plastic Air suction vent on ether side of the radiator. Removal of the air suction vents look to be blocked by the radiators. I was hoping I could access without removing the radiators but maybe that isn't possible.

    My WS Manual is very vague on the process and the copy I have has no photos in the section (though they are referenced). Any help/suggestions from someone that has gone through the process would be appreciated.
     
  2. brogenville

    brogenville Formula 3
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    #2 brogenville, Aug 13, 2018
    I know what you mean- I ran into the same issue and wondered about removing the radiator too. In the end I managed fine by just undoing the cross member, and moving it forward to get more clearance around the timing covers, but without taking it off the car. It worked fine doing it that way, though be carful with the sharp edges on that cross member.
     
  3. TrojanFan

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    #3 TrojanFan, Aug 13, 2018
    Trouble i am having is that the access to the top bolt of the 3 bolts on each side of the cross member is blocked by the air suction vents on either side. Removing the air suction vents seem to be blocked by the radiators. Ive removed the screws and the air ducts are loose but there is not enough room to remove them between the inner fender, front end and radiator.
     
  4. brogenville

    brogenville Formula 3
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    #4 brogenville, Aug 13, 2018
    Yeah, I took the tops of the air boxes off, and undid the bolts holding the bottoms down. They will wobble about as you say, but are prevented from coming out due to the rad. Its a bit of a cee u next Tuesday getting the bolts for the crossmember off at this stage (especially the ones on the underside), but it is possible.

    If you’re struggling, maybe get an Allan key and trim it down a bit?

    Just take your time and remember to swear a lot.
     
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  5. TrojanFan

    TrojanFan F1 Rookie
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    #5 TrojanFan, Aug 13, 2018
    Just take your time and remember to swear a lot.

    I got that part down. If that was all it took, I'd be a certified master mechanic by now!
     
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  6. Anthony James

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    #6 Anthony James, Aug 13, 2018
    Its a 6mm allen socket if I remember, have to get a very long one like 8" ball end to sneak by. The car has to be off the ground, as the weight of the chassis will keep pushing in on the bar preventing it from coming out. After that you can pull all of the radiator and cooler forward and tie it away. Just an FYI The bolts on one side of the steering rack are different lengths so make note of them.
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  7. Ferrari Tech

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    #7 Ferrari Tech, Aug 14, 2018
    I always drop the radiator in a 612 doing a major. It comes out of the bottom and is not hard to get out but makes life easier when doing a major.
     
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  8. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    #8 Motob, Aug 14, 2018
    You don't have to remove the cross-member/radiator or lower portions of the airboxes. It is a huge time suck. It is much easier to remove the motor mount to subframe bolts the then jack the engine up in order to get the belt covers off, saves hours off of the service time.
     
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  9. TrojanFan

    TrojanFan F1 Rookie
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    #9 TrojanFan, Aug 14, 2018
    Motob:

    I'm all for learning the tricks to save time and labor. By motor mount bolts, I'm assuming that you are referring to the one highlighted here on either side of the engine. How much lift can you safely achieve with the mount bolts removed? Where is the safe point on the engine to place the jack?
     

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  10. TrojanFan

    TrojanFan F1 Rookie
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    #10 TrojanFan, Aug 14, 2018
    This looks to be a lower bolt. Mine also has a top bolt which is accessed through a hole in the top portion of the cross member and it is covered by the air suction vent. Maybe there is enough play to wobble a long hex extension in there but its very tight.
     
  11. Anthony James

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    #11 Anthony James, Aug 14, 2018
  12. TrojanFan

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    #12 TrojanFan, Aug 14, 2018

    Top two and bottom two are out. Vent is loose but it is wedged between the inner fender wall and the radiator so no room to pull it out of the way.
     
  13. TrojanFan

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    #13 TrojanFan, Aug 16, 2018
    Success! I was able to use a long 6mm hex socket (about 6") and an 8" extension while pulling up on the plastic vent to get the bolts out. Crossmember is loose! Im going to leave it as is for tonight and savor the small victory before something else hits me tomorrow.
     
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  14. brogenville

    brogenville Formula 3
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    #14 brogenville, Aug 18, 2018
    Nicely done. You should be able to do whatever you need to on the front of the engine with the cross member in this loose state. I think you’ll need to get the air intakes off (and hence the radiator etc) if you want to remove it completely.
     
  15. TrojanFan

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    #15 TrojanFan, Aug 19, 2018
    Yep, air vents block the cross member from comming out. Had the vents been made in two pieces to come out, it would have eliminated all this other BS. Looks like radiators need to come out. For those who say to pull them forward, cant see how you do that as the vents keep the radiator from moving more than about an inch at best.
     
  16. TrojanFan

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    #16 TrojanFan, Aug 19, 2018
    Ok so i separated the fron two radiators from the main one and then removed the lower radiator mounts and was able the drop the radiator down about 5 inches on one side which was enough to wrestle the cross member out. Simple enough to get the accessory belt and timing belt covers off. Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  17. TrojanFan

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    #17 TrojanFan, Aug 19, 2018
    Question now is how do you get the new belts on around the main timing belt pulley? Doesnt seem to be enough clearance to get the belts around the pulley.
     
  18. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 fatbillybob, Aug 19, 2018
    remove damper bolt and slide damper forward to gain access.
     
  19. TrojanFan

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    #19 TrojanFan, Aug 20, 2018
    Of course. Its always one more thing with these cars. Now it looks like to get access I either need to remove the steering rack or the motor mount bolts and raise the engine up. My 328 was a breeze compared to this one.
     
  20. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #20 fatbillybob, Aug 20, 2018
    All cars are this way now. The quest for more MPG and lower emissions with more power increase the complexity of the cars. With experience you can look at a car and just know what you need to remove to gain access. I totally understand your timidness at this 1st time adventure. My best advice is don't sweet it. When in doubt take it out and gain proper clear access so you can do your job well. Anything you take out you can put back in. It just takes time. As a hobby you have plenty of that. The cell camera is a great thing by your side so you can see where everything was when you put it back. 30 years ago I would be drawing pictures of where the longer bolt goes on the timing covers.

    Remember MOTOB's statement of jacking the motor up to access the parts for your 1st question? He sounds right on target to help you get past the Damper bolt too.
     
  21. TrojanFan

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    #21 TrojanFan, Aug 21, 2018
    Jacking the motor to get around the steering rack seems reasonable. I dont see how it would have given enough clearance to avoid removing the cross member. It appears that both are necessary.
     
  22. brogenville

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    #22 brogenville, Aug 21, 2018
    Yup, front pulley needs to come off to get the timing belts out. I remember having exactly the same "one more bloody thing" feeling when I did this a few months ago. I went for lifting the steering rack rather than lifting the engine on its mounts, but the latter may well be easier. For the rack though, it just needs to come off its fixings rather than out fully in order to move forward enough to get in with a big (36mm?) socket on the crank pulley.

    Top tip for locking the engine (given to me by Motob too) is to use the inspection panel in the bottom of the bell housing. The pulley bolt needs a shed load of torque to come off, so having something solid to react against makes things much easier. I used a pry bar in the inspection port and slid it in between the flywheel and the clutch cover.
     
  23. TrojanFan

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    #23 TrojanFan, Aug 25, 2018
  24. brogenville

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    #24 brogenville, Aug 25, 2018
    I bought one of the all metal water pumps too. Advice from ricambi was to hold onto the old one, as whilst they aren’t making them any more, they are rebuildable as you say, where as the all metal ones aren’t.
     
  25. TrojanFan

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    #25 TrojanFan, Sep 3, 2018
    Glad I changed these belts. With limited service history on my car, I had no information on the last timing belt change. Car had been serviced from new ('06) until 2013 by Ferrari Ft. Lauderdale but they wont share the records. Dont know who did the service, if anyone, from 2013 to early 2017.

    Pulled the belts today and they had a October 2012 date code so probably were installed late '12 early '13 so puts me right around 5.5+/- years. Belts looked in great shape. One of the tensioner bearings looks somewhat suspect.
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