747-8: Flight Report | Page 16 | FerrariChat

747-8: Flight Report

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by LouB747, Aug 17, 2012.

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  1. FERRARI-TECH

    FERRARI-TECH Formula 3

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  2. Jet-X

    Jet-X F1 Veteran

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    I was on a Delta 757 into SLC descending through 10k in prep for landing when we were struck by lightning. It got quiet all of a sudden, and a big flash, a giant "BAM!" and the plane felt like it shifted 5 feet to the left. No one screamed, it remained quiet, and after we landed and began taxiing did the pilot inform us we were hit by lightning. Yeah, no **** -
     
  3. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

     
  4. beast

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  5. LouB747

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    #380 LouB747, Aug 22, 2013
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  6. Bob Parks

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    When I was at Langley Field a B-17 was struck by lightning on the way to the field in a violent thunder storm. The bombardier and the navigator bailed our without orders since the inside of the airplane lit up in blue flame. The number one engine was fried as was everything else in the airplane. It was a Mickey Ship loaded with all kinds of new electronics and radar. The pilot landed in a howling rain storm without any instruments, saving the airplane and the remaining crew. I have always considered this guy as a hero but it was handled as an everyday event. We searched for a week in 90 deg. August heat and finally found the two who bailed out on the shore of the Chesapeake Bay.
     
  7. LouB747

    LouB747 Formula 3

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    Got an email today. Looks like 3 or 4 more -8s to join the fleet by March. One coming in October, the next in November. I hear I may be picking up the November plane.
     
  8. LouB747

    LouB747 Formula 3

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    OK, I've been flying the -8 a bunch lately. With 2 of our 9 airplane fleet being -8s, flying them is hit and miss. They happen to do a lot of Pacific flying with the -8, which is where I mostly fly.

    I've found one thing I definitely don't like about the -8 now....Engine spool up lag. In the 400, when you want power, it's almost instant. In the -8, it seems to take forever sometimes. Here's an example.

    I was flying from Tokyo to Anchorage. Arrival from the west and landing to the east. Basically a straight in from a thousand miles out. As jets are more efficient at altitude, most pilots like to plan an idle path descent. Essentially picking a spot at which the power can be pulled back to idle, then not applied again until 1000 ft or so. In modern aircraft, the FMS shows you that point. Of course as winds change on descent, it's not perfect. It's sometimes referred to as a CDA, or Constant Descent Approach. Great for people on the ground that live under approach paths, as it's quieter. The -8 doesn't quite do an idle path descent, but that's another story. Anyways, after a nice idle path descent, I was a little high. I actually like being a little high, as I can use the flaps a little early to create enough drag to get back on path. If you're low, there's not much you can do. You can slow a little to best L/D, but that is close to where you already are. So adding power is your only option. OK, I'm making a short story long. I was a little high. I put out some flaps a little early. The wind shifted to a tailwind and I was still high. I dropped the landing gear a little early. All of this while at idle power. Nothing out of the ordinary. I was on glideslope now and slowing. The 747 slows pretty quickly with gear and flaps 20. As I was approaching flaps 20 speed, I pushed up the power. Nothing. I pushed in some more. Nothing. I glanced at the upper EICAS where the N1 gauges are (primary power reference). The commanded N1 (a white line) showed where I wanted the power. The engines however, were still around idle. As I was manually flying already (autopilot off) and shooting a visual approach, I needed to go below the GS in order to maintain airspeed. For a split second, I thought about the BA 777 that landed short in Heathrow because of engine failure on short final. I was around 1500 ft at the time. I also quickly thought of my options if I didn't get power. Right about then the power came up and all was well.

    Afterthoughts. While I knew the -8s new GENx engines were a bit laggy, I hadn't seen it to this extent. I've since talked to other pilots who have experienced this. I figured this approach was the worst case scenario. As I had GEAR down and flaps 20, it's the most drag you can have at idle. If I had put the flaps to 25 or 30, the engines automatically spool up a bit to approach idle, basically helping with the lag. In the future, I'll add power earlier to compensate for the lag.

    Also, there have been quite a few rejected takeoffs in -8s due to assymetric thrust. This is also due to the lag. For those that don't fly jets, takeoff goes like this.... Push the power up to a determined amount (70% N1 on 400, 45% N1 on -8), make sure they're stabilized, then push TOGA. TOGA uses autothrottles to set TO power. Riding as a passenger, Im sure you've noticed the initial power up, then shortly after full power. As power is pushed up on the -8, it takes quite awhile to get 45%N1. Way longer than the 400 does. Sometimes guys push the power further to try and get them to get going. And some have then pushed the TOGA buttons before they have all stabilzed. As the engines don't all spool initially at the same rates, this can lead to an assymetric condition. GE has posted info to pilots regarding this.

    Once the new GENx engines are in the "normal" operating range, they operate well. A little bit of lag, but not bad. It's the initial spool up where the lag occurs.

    I wonder if the 787 GENx engines have this. I realize the 2 engines are different....

    Also, I saw that a 747-8 recently had an engine failure at cruise. Possibly more than one engine.....

    Russia to investigate AirBridgeCargo 747-8F engine incident with Boeing, GE | Safety content from ATWOnline
     
  9. Gatorrari

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    Seems a bit worrisome. I seem to remember that there were several early 727 crashes caused by slow spool-up on approach, since apparently the JT8D, initially at least, spooled up slower than the JT3D or whatever the pilots were accustomed to.

    Maybe GE can make some adjustments that will ease the problem. Hopefully it won't take a crash to make that happen.
     
  10. Bob Parks

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    I remember that in the early days on the smaller 50-60" diameter engines that they had acceleration limiters to prevent too high a fuel flow before enough cooling air started to come in. If not, they could reach white hot temps in a split second and start to melt things. These big dia. engines have more inertia in the rotating parts than the small ones . Could that be a consideration?
     
  11. Bob Parks

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    Lou, let Spasso and me know when you'll be here so we maybe can say hi.
     
  12. LouB747

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    Will do. Look forward to it.
     
  13. FERRARI-TECH

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    #388 FERRARI-TECH, Sep 25, 2013
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  14. KKSBA

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    Beautiful!
     
  15. LouB747

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    Yeah, I think it's been stored at Marana for a little while. It's leaving Boeing on October 11th for Narita. JA14KZ I believe. While I won't be in the left seat for this one, I may be the "extra" captain for the flight. I'll keep you posted and take pics if I go.

    Rumor has it NCA will be changing a couple orders from -8Fs to Intercontinentals. Passenger planes! While not confirmed, rumor has it NCA will lease 2 passenger 747-8s to the Japanese govenment.
     
  16. LouB747

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    I guess the "storage" wasn't a good thing. I was called in sorta last minute to go up to Seattle and pick it up. Was supposed to fly to Narita on the 11th. But apparently some mechanical issues with the plane. The new pickup date is the 18th. Not sure what's wrong with it. Snakes and scorpions in the E&E compartment? Anyways, I won't be able to go on the 18th. If it delays further, I'll be on it.

    I am scheduled for the next one on November 6th. JA14KZ I think. I wonder where it's been sitting.....
     
  17. toggie

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    #392 toggie, Oct 13, 2013
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  18. LouB747

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    #393 LouB747, Oct 15, 2013
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  19. Jet-X

    Jet-X F1 Veteran

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    Beauty. I'm expecting when Korean takes their -8i's, we'll be seeing those in LAX as well.
     
  20. LouB747

    LouB747 Formula 3

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    I was supposed to be flying it (new airplane) out tomorrow. Cancelled again. Not sure what's up with it.

    Boeing's stock continues to soar.
     
  21. FERRARI-TECH

    FERRARI-TECH Formula 3

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    If they need me to take a look under the hood..............;)
     
  22. LouB747

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    Yes, I think they do!

    It's a go for tomorrow. Unfortunately due to Halloween and having kids, I won't be flying it. But I am on the schedule to pick up the next airplane on Nov 14th.
     
  23. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
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    Glad you're home with the family for trick or treat.
     
  24. LouB747

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    Thanks Jim,

    Time with the family means more than anything.
     
  25. LouB747

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    #400 LouB747, Nov 2, 2013
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    While flying into SFO yesterday, we hit a few birds on short final. It was night, so we didn't see them. But it's pretty easy to hear them hit. Took one on the nose just in front of the nose gear, and one in the right outboard flap. No damage. It did give me a chance to take a quick photo of the flaps. Unfortunately a low light iphone pic. This plane is a 400, as noted by the triple slotted flaps. The -8 has either single or double slotted flaps, I can't remember right now......

    Ive been told, but can't verify, that the 747's flap area is larger the the 727's wing area (or maybe 737). Not sure how true that is. They are massive when you walk right up next to them!
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