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'76-'77, 308s Side Mirrors Positioning History

Discussion in '308/328' started by JuLiTrO, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. JuLiTrO

    JuLiTrO Karting

    Nov 2, 2017
    160
    Full Name:
    Julio Saiz
    Dear all,

    I've been searching old post and google some pictures of USA and European specs early 308s, and this is what I learned about mirrors:
    • OEM side mirrors are Vitaloni California.
    • Passenger side was optional
    • Position is forward close to edge of door in Europeans, more backward close to window frame in USA
    • Some owners report poor visibility with Californias, others are satisfied. Both USA and EU
    My unit is '77 USA 308 GTB. Former owner had Tornados installed, he reported poor visibility with Californias. When I bought the car I took the Californias with me.
    This week I put the Californias back, and....I cannot see a sh***** :rolleyes:. Basically It doesn't matter how much I move the housing up and down or the glass back and forth I do not manage to see the rear of the car.
    I believe the positioning of my mirrors/holes in doors are OEM-USA
    Some photos Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

    And now the questions:
    • Why do the USA models have the mirrors backwards?
    • Does the possibility exist there are different Californias for USA and Europe cars? and therefore I have a EU model in a USA car...
    • Are my mirrors too much backwards?
    • Can I further modify the glass angle with the two screws underneath the housing? (didn't try yet sorry)
    I am puzzled guys :)

    Your thoughts are very welcome

    Thank you!
     
  2. mechaniker

    mechaniker Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 30, 2004
    425
    The Vitalonis should all be the same. Here in Germany they were sold in supermarkets for cheap in the 80s, btw.

    You can´t modify the position of the mirror with the two screws.

    What do You see? The car or the sky?
    When you see the car, you could try to change the direction of the mirror base by dismantling the mirror assembly, but make sure to collect all srews and washers.
     
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  3. 4right

    4right Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

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  4. chris1866

    chris1866 Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2005
    355
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    Chris
    I have a '76 build date USA car. It came with a Tornado when I bought it, which I replaced with the correct Vitaloni California. Driver side only, and the positioning is exactly where yours is. I also cannot see anything at all out of it, regardless of angle. If I crane my neck backwards and towards the window, I can see a little bit. I think it would be much better if it was farther forward like in the Euro-spec example pictured above.
     
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  5. JuLiTrO

    JuLiTrO Karting

    Nov 2, 2017
    160
    Full Name:
    Julio Saiz
    Hi, yeap. Thats the difference between USA and EU models
     
  6. JuLiTrO

    JuLiTrO Karting

    Nov 2, 2017
    160
    Full Name:
    Julio Saiz
    Thats exactly what I am experiencing!!!

    My theory then is that there are at least two models of Californias, and I think they differ in the length of the housing arm. For USA cars you would need the longer arm

    What do you think guys?
     
  7. lm2504me

    lm2504me Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 26, 2004
    499
    Nipomo, CA
    Full Name:
    Richard
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  8. JuLiTrO

    JuLiTrO Karting

    Nov 2, 2017
    160
    Full Name:
    Julio Saiz
  9. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 4, 2001
    28,817
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
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  10. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    70,856
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    I also run the rectangular Baby Turbos..….I have had the OEM mirrors, on my other two cars.

    You are really trying to see the adjacent lanes, for maneuvers, you won't be able to adjust them to get a glimpse of your rear quarter panel in the view for reference.
    I have had replacements made from flat glass, you might check with a glass company about fitting a convex mirror??

    It was rumored the dealers "custom installed" them to individual owners, but my doors have embedded barrel nuts for mounting.
    I would think that was Factory.
     
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  11. JuLiTrO

    JuLiTrO Karting

    Nov 2, 2017
    160
    Full Name:
    Julio Saiz
  12. vaccarella

    vaccarella Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2011
    2,287
    Full Name:
    Paul
    That would give you a more usable passenger side setup with the Californian. I switched my Baby Turbos for Californians & the window's quarter light pillar gets in the way on the passenger side. The driver side is ok. If/when I paint the car I'd move them both to the euro position.
     
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  13. JuLiTrO

    JuLiTrO Karting

    Nov 2, 2017
    160
    Full Name:
    Julio Saiz
    Makes sense indeed
    Would you mind posting some photos and/measuring the length of your driver California mirror?

    Thank you!
     
  14. vaccarella

    vaccarella Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2011
    2,287
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    Paul
    It's a US GTS with the Californians mounted in the Baby Turbo holes. It's a straight swap. The mounting holes have maybe 0.5 or 1mm difference in distance Vs the turbos, but very easily within tolerance for the mounting bolts.
     
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  15. JuLiTrO

    JuLiTrO Karting

    Nov 2, 2017
    160
    Full Name:
    Julio Saiz
    Thank you!
    What I am trying to figure out is whether there are different sizes of California
    I believe the US versions mounted longer arms mirrors and perhaps housings
     
  16. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 22, 2003
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    SW-Germany
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    Martin N.
    Hi Julio,

    here's mine. It's the passenger side, but driver's side is the same. I just had more space to take a pic on the ps.

    Euro position:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Arm length (same like Paul's)

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    I can actually see a little bit. But much worse than with the Baby Turbos I had before.

    Best Regards
    Martin
     
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  17. Hannibal308

    Hannibal308 F1 Rookie
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    Jan 3, 2012
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    HDH - SBA - SEZ - JWY
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    Will
    These mirrors are pretty robust internally. You could easily shim the mirror position where it’s adhered by double sided tape to the adjusting part. The limitation in motion comes from the pivot socket impinging with the mirror/mounting plate. These are super easy to take apart. Mine are on euro GTBs and I can’t see squat from them, even though they are mounted forward. Welcome to Ferrari!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  18. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    Sorry, I mixed up posts. Should be; 'same like yours'

    Best
    Martin
     
  19. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie

    May 26, 2011
    2,694
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I could never see anything out of both mirrors! If I got down in a hunched position I could use the passenger mirror. I used to literally turn around to check the traffic before changing lanes. It's very old school!
     
  20. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    That's old school :) :



    Best from Germany
    Martin
     
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  21. JuLiTrO

    JuLiTrO Karting

    Nov 2, 2017
    160
    Full Name:
    Julio Saiz
    Go it! :) and thanks for the measuring. So if there are two sizes California it is confirmed I have the EU size ones

    Thats old school and a big Classic!!!

    @BigTex @lm2504me would you mine measuring the arm and housing length of your mirrors?

    @All, do anybody know why US cars have more backward position? just for the records and to complete the open points of the thread

    Thank you!
     
  22. lm2504me

    lm2504me Formula Junior
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    Aug 26, 2004
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  23. vaccarella

    vaccarella Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2011
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    Almost certainly because of DoT regs in place at the time. It explains all the other US spec oddities and ugliness like bumpers, side markers, exhaust diaper etc so I can't see wing mirror type & position being any different.
     
  24. TripleBlack

    TripleBlack Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 1, 2006
    393
    Paris, France
    At the request of JuLiTro, that's what I can say about mirrors.

    I'm afraid to say that none of the Ferrari 308 was delivered in the USA with the Vitaloni Californian. Indeed, the federal law requires the mirrors to be able to swing away when struck by a test cylinder meant to represent a pedestrian (since 1958), which is why the 308 were equipped with Vitaloni Baby Tornado rounded edge. The Californian can move from down to up, but not from front to rear.

    Regarding the position, I could have thought at the beginning that it was because of the shape of the window and the mirror that the US placement was deported backwards but, later in the production, the European cars have mirrors in flags but keep the advanced position of mirrors ... so I think it was a specific federal law that required either a distance or an angle of vision. I would have to look in more detail and admit that it's a little complicated for me from Europe...
    This shift will continue, even on the QV that in Europe, see the position of side mirror retreat but not as much as on the US model.

    In Europe, there are 3 types of mirrors and 2 assemblies:
    Carbu: Californian beginning of the quarter window position
    Injection Unielectra flag (electrically operated) same forward position
    QV: Bellows Vitaloni (unknown commercial name), at 1/3 of the quarter window from front

    In USA, 2 type mirrors and 1 assembly only
    Carbu: Baby Tornado
    Injected and QV: Unielectra (more or less, I do not have the date of the appearance of this fitment)

    Note #1 : the position of the mirror passenger side is more "random". I think it was the dealer who dealt with it. I have seen more or less recessed but I have never seen the bulletin stating the exact dimensions and placement of the holes for the mounting procedure.

    Note #2 : I have never seen several sizes of Vitaloni Californian, as the discussion suggests. I would like to have the references from the owners if it is possible.

    US position holes:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login


    US Vitaloni Baby Tornado:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login


    Euro carbureted holes position (RHD but same reverse for continental)

    Image Unavailable, Please Login


    And for the end, 2 cars with both fitment (but with same mirror for the black car which is not from factory specs):

    Image Unavailable, Please Login


    Hope this helps :):)
     
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  25. lm2504me

    lm2504me Formula Junior
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    Aug 26, 2004
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    Nipomo, CA
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