76 GTB Major Service with Sodium Extraction | FerrariChat

76 GTB Major Service with Sodium Extraction

Discussion in '308/328' started by FRIPS, Dec 14, 2015.

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  1. FRIPS

    FRIPS Karting

    Jul 26, 2005
    106
    Toronto, ON
    Full Name:
    Dave
    #1 FRIPS, Dec 14, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The time to give 20621 some TLC has arrived. The last major service was in late 2009 at just over 67,000 miles. The car now has 74,000 miles with regular use and fluid changes but has reached the point of a major service.

    This forum has been very valuable as both a source for finding a car and as a technical resource. I wanted to give back in my small way and decided to post some pictures and comments on some of the work and small things I learn along the way in the hopes that it might be of help to other fellow 308 enthusiasts.

    Since winter is upon us here in the Great White North, it’s time to begin the work with the intention of having the car back together well before winter is out.

    I am planning a little more than your typical major service as the heads will be coming off to replace the sodium exhaust valves. In addition, I plan to replace all the rubber hoses in the engine compartment so I have a line in the sand with what is fresh vs what is old or even original.

    Based on the above work, it was clear that the motor should come out. This would allow for a good general engine bay clean up and easy access to all hoses including the driver side vacuum and coolant long hoses. I also wanted to take the opportunity to remove the front header heat shield which has been rattling and sitting on the shift shaft for some time. The rear header had the heat shield removed previously, so I’ll send both out for a black ceramic coating.

    I am performing the work with the help of two close friends and fellow f-chat members Nuvolari and Rosemeyer - both are well versed in the 308 and 246 era cars, the later of which they just finished a complete restoration on so I am very lucky to have some excellent knowledge to draw from.

    Before starting, it was decided to give the engine a compression check. We decided to perform a hot and cold compression to compare results and see if there would be a significant difference. This was then followed up with a leakdown test once the engine was out of the car.

    For the hot test, we did allow the engine to cool down about ~30mins so we could keep some of the hair on our fingers intact. The results were as follows:

    Hot compression: Cylinders 1-8: 178 – 185 psi (3.78% variation)

    Cold compression: Cylinders 1-8: 175-180 psi (2.78% variation)

    Cold compression was performed the next morning with a fully charged battery.

    Not bad for a 40 year old motor that we are pretty sure has never been apart. Regular use and fluid changes probably have helped. It also verifies that the documented mileage in my records is real mileage rather than an under estimate. ;)

    Once the fluids were drained it took approximately 8 hrs to have the motor completely out working at a steady pace. We also took the time to label and collect items methodically as a little time now will pay great dividends when re-assembling. Another tip here that became really apparent later was – YOU CANNOT TAKE TOO MANY REFERENCE PHOTOS.

    We used the method on the Birdman website for securing the motor - a strap in front of the forward cylinder head. This technique works well, just remember to make sure your engine hoist has sufficient vertical reach – double check with your strap length before lifting. We used a 6ft lifting strap. The strap secures itself quite well with all the studs present. We also used the engine leveling cross bar attachment that comes with the hoist as a slight adjustment side to side seemed to make removal a bit easier. We had 3 guys for pulling – 2 spotting and 1 manning the lifting hoist.

    Also, don’t forget to disconnect the hidden ground strap passenger side rear cross member, it will not let go on it’s own……ask us how we know :)

    We tried to leave the front header in place but in the end, it was disconnected and left on the frame – believe me, it was not coming out with the front header on!! Best to remove before pulling the motor.

    Engine was removed without headers or airbox but carbs in place, we just located the strap carefully not to touch the carbs. Driveshafts were just disconnected at the diff flanges but also left in place. We’re I to do another car, I would remove the driveshafts completely as well, they only got in the way and ended up coming out later for a re-pack and inspect.

    Multiple layers of yoga mats were used to help protect the rear glass and bodywork and front firewall.

    With the engine out we proceeded to perform the leakdown. I bought an OTC leakdown kit online and this worked pretty well, The only thing is the hose that comes with it is on the short side. So if we were to do this in the car, I believe a hose extension would be required.

    The results were 2.44% - 6.25% with cylinder number 5 having the highest value. Again like the compression results, we were pretty happy with the figures.

    Next up, head removal.
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  2. dpospres

    dpospres Formula Junior

    Jun 29, 2005
    275
    I thought the sodium valves were just on '80 to '82 injected engines?
     
  3. FRIPS

    FRIPS Karting

    Jul 26, 2005
    106
    Toronto, ON
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    Dave
    To the best of my knowledge all 2V 308's Carb and Injected and all GT4's came with sodium exhaust valves form the factory.
     
  4. dpospres

    dpospres Formula Junior

    Jun 29, 2005
    275
    Yes....I looked at other threads and you are correct. I learned something new today.
     
  5. VMAXIM

    VMAXIM Rookie

    Sep 22, 2013
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    Toronto
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    Gino Rossi7
    Memories......I did the exact same job a few years ago. Where are you getting the valves? Consider replacing both intake and exhaust, as its money well spent and not expensive.
     
  6. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
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    Graham
    Nice one - Will be following this with interest as Im in the process of doing the same thing. Lots of photos please! :)

    Where will you be getting your valves from?
     
  7. FRIPS

    FRIPS Karting

    Jul 26, 2005
    106
    Toronto, ON
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    Dave
    Purchased the valves from Superformance. I ended up replacing only the exhaust as the intake valves were in fantastic shape. I was ready to buy whatever was needed, but I went on the recommendation of our engine builder.

    I'll post a bit more detail in an upcoming update, I am a bit behind with my write ups.

    Best Regards

    Dave
     
  8. FRIPS

    FRIPS Karting

    Jul 26, 2005
    106
    Toronto, ON
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    Dave
    Thanks for the comments.

    I didn't take as many photos at the beginning as I would have liked, but I got better as the work progressed, still new at making a documentation thread but I promise as many decent pictures as I have.
     
  9. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    Sep 3, 2002
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    I was happy to be part of this job and it is always good fun when friends get together to play with cars. I will let Dave tell the tale and jump in with some details as they come up. For sure a number of good tips learnt from (sometimes hard) experience will be shared along with photos to guide the process.

    I will make a few notes so far:

    - This is NOT a restoration thread! This service focused on solid, mechanically sound work with an emphasis on clean and neat assembly. The plan from the start was not to re-plate and detail everything with an aim to total concours correctness. I just finished going down that path with a 3.5 year 7000 hour restoration on a Dino (that netted 100 points at the FCA National meet earlier this year) so being free of the endless focus on potential points deductions was quite liberating. This car is a driver with no intentions of showing so this thread can hopefully act as good guidance for someone interested in servicing their Ferrari themselves.

    - Doing a job like this can put you into an endless trap of 'while you are at it might as well' tasks. We tried hard to balance the desire to do EVERYTHING with leaving assemblies that gave no problems alone rather than doing them just because. The intake valves were a prime example where they were properly inspected and re-used because we could find no advantage to changing them nor was there any evidence to suggest that they should cause future issue.

    - Head removal or not, pulling the engine was the best choice we could have ever made. It actually only took about 6 hours (veal sandwiches and shop banter ate up the rest) and gave access you can't imagine. I cannot stress enough the value in pulling the motor as the time is more than made up over the course of the project while allowing jobs that would otherwise be impossible.
     
  10. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    My next 328 service will involve removal of the engine. ...
     
  11. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    Bubba
    Rock on, great thread!!
     
  12. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
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    Graham
    Did you take out the AC compressor or leave it plumbed in and push it aside?
     
  13. myronx19

    myronx19 Formula Junior

    May 27, 2012
    653
    Toronto, ON Canada
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    Myron Samila
    I can't wait to go for a "post sodium extraction" ride! Great post - subscribed.

    ;)
     
  14. climb

    climb F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2006
    4,866
    Atlantic Beach Fl
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    Stuart K. Hicks
    Great work. Thanks for sharing. Can't wait to see more..
     
  15. FRIPS

    FRIPS Karting

    Jul 26, 2005
    106
    Toronto, ON
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    Dave
    #15 FRIPS, Dec 16, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    With the motor out it was time to remove the heads so we could have them inspected and complete the list of items to purchase.

    Before removing the belts and cams we wanted to check the alignment marks and luckily all 4 cams aligned with the cam cap marks with the engine at PM1. So we would use this as our reference for reassembly.

    After 6 years the belts looked like new and the tensioners (I believe there are the old SKF type based on the blue bearing seal in the photo) turned very freely with no play. Lower cam drive pulleys had no play as well, but I planned to replace the lower (outer) cam drive bearings anyway for my piece of mind since the access with the engine out is unparalleled.

    Finally, it was time to remove the heads. We tried a standard first approach - some taps with soft mallets and 2X4 wood but this did not do much. We did see coolant start to leak form the exhaust side of both heads indicating we broke the seal but no real movement of the head on either side.

    We had read about heating the heads and hanging the entire assembly from the head itself, but decided to make a fixture for what we were hoping would be a less dramatic removal method.

    This took some time as we measured all the head, cam and valve cover stud locations and then had a plate fabricated that we could bolt all the hardware to. The plan was to use the 10 head studs to push and react the load on all the cam and valve cover studs – distributed evenly over 30 studs, we felt this would be quite gentle on the heads.

    It worked like a charm, without much force and being sure to torque down on the 10 head studs as slowly and evenly as possible, both heads lifted off without much drama. I highly recommend this method to anyone attempting to remove heads that have been in place a while.

    The bottom end looked to be in fantastic condition which aligned with our pressure/leakdown figures so we stuck to our plan of head work only. It’s quite tempting to go deep and do everything once you have things apart but based on the overall condition of the engine we stuck to our plan of sodium valve replacement.

    With heads on the table, it was time to send them out for teardown. We sent the heads with cams and caps to a local performance engine builder that we have used for years on our road race motors. We know he had worked on numerous 246, 308 and 355 engines over the years as well so we were quite comfortable with his capabilities and the quality of work that we would get back on this project.

    Based on his feedback of what would be needed, we began to finish our overall grocery list.
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  16. FRIPS

    FRIPS Karting

    Jul 26, 2005
    106
    Toronto, ON
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    Dave
    We ended up removing it since I needed to give the system a charge anyway (was not blowing as cold this year) and also to improve overall access and not have it in the way - it is one big pump!

    Dave
     
  17. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    That head pulling fixture makes me smile every time I see it :)
     
  18. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Apr 1, 2004
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    I just torn down a core motor, 74' carb 308. The liners were a PITA to remove even with a pulling fixture. The cast iron liners had over the last 35yrs suffered major anodic corrosion, the inside of the block is caked and plated with iron oxide, lime and calcium. First couple goes of hot tanking and cleaning removed little, next step is the sonic tank. What was supposed to be a simple quick rebuild has turned into a bit of PITA! to say the least. This is one major reason why the later blocks sport aluminum liners with a nikasil coating. I hope that your build doesn't have the same problem when you pull the liners. to replace the O rings.
     
  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    They went to the alloy liners because they had so much trouble with the Borgo crap and Mahle had a great product. It was not for our convenience for easy removal 20+ years later.

    They went back to iron liners on 355 and the 12's too. In every case it was a decision based on available technology and what was going on one the interior of the liner, not corrosion.

    Pull the liners for the purpose of replacing O rings? Why? They don't leak.
     
  20. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    I figured at least one reason for the switch would be the anodic corrosion issue, but I very well could be wrong. COE (coefficient of thermal expansion) is more likely the biggest reason, add in the anodic index and any Al block MFG would be looking for a better liner, and they did, unfortunately sulfur had other plans for that as we know...

    The O rings may not leak if everything is sealed up nice but once again the anodic corrosion issue will ruin the O ring seat on the liner, as eventually the liner itself will have corrosion gaps that could leak. Not to mention how else do you check and clean the block. Also and I could be simply overthinking or anal retentive about this, the O ring provides crush and sealing as the block heats up, Aluminum and iron expand with differing rates, the liners sit proud of the block when cold and then not so much when hot. The COE of Aluminum to cast iron is 2x. Once the heads are pulled the original clamp load is lost and the risk of leaks in the future goes up significantly.

    So personally I will not R&R a cyl head on these engines with replacing those O rings, esp if it's been over a decade since it was last apart. So why would should I not?
     
  21. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #21 Rifledriver, Dec 17, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015


    Because it is making a mountain out of a molehill. They never ever leak. We have a huge amount of direct experience and a data base going back since they started and there is nothing to support what you are suggesting.

    I'll make it even easier. Its stupid. You are trying to make a case that we can't just R+R a head on a motor with wet liners, something that has been getting done week in and week out since they have been in use which dates back to the very early days of the motor car. Even Ferrari with their sometimes bizarre methods has never suggested such a dumb procedure.
     
  22. ZOOOOMZ

    ZOOOOMZ Karting

    Aug 14, 2013
    248
    Austin, Texas, USA
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    Tim Cronin
    Nice Head pulling fixture! For future reference (someday when I have to pull the heads), I have a few questions about the approach you used:

    1) What is the material and thickness of the head pulling fixture (plate) you used?
    1a) Did you just use a couple of gaskets to locate the hole centers when you drilled the plate?
    2) How did your 10 push/pull bolts index on the head studs? did you grind their ends to a specific shape, or anything?
    3) it looks like you distributed the force across all (most) of the cam bearing cap studs and the head cover studs. Is this correct?
    4) when you pulled the heads, did you note what torque was required on the push bolts to break the heads free? What torque was required to complete the pull?
    5) did you follow any specific pattern to your process? (work like a multi-step torquing pattern, for example)
     
  23. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    The fixture is a 3/8" steel that was laser cut with holes for all of the M6 cam caps and valve covers along with 10 M10 holes for the bolts that do the pushing. The first step was making a big paper template with measurements that we took to the laser cutter and they did the rest. Once back we welded on 10 nuts for the pusher bolts and the setup was done.

    Outside of this there was no specific process beyond some simple common sense. We bolted down the fixture using as many of the M6 studs as possible to distribute the load and then progressively tightened the M10 bolts making sure that the head was pulling off nice and straight. The puller worked until about 70% extraction and by then it was possible to pull the heads off the rest of the way by hand.
     
  24. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    The only time I would see removing the liners is when the engine has been stressed, and the deck is warped, and the liners do not protrude evenly above the deck for a good seal against the head gasket. And you have to remove the liners and the studs in order to machine the deck. Otherwise, the o rings don't leak.
     
  25. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    How about just renting out that jig?
     

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