What about both? While we’re dreaming- purely for fun- There are 2 main, and related problems with EVs as performance cars (not discussing the lack of emotion) 1- they require a large and heavy battery 2- The difficulty of getting current out of/ and in to/ a battery is seemingly directly proportional to the size of the battery- a larger battery takes longer to charge up, takes heavier duty wires- at least by my admittedly limited understanding. So we have the opposite of virtuous cycle of weight reduction. We need to keep adding heavier components. Heavier battery, motors, wires, etc. Gears are power multipliers (and also reducers). So- What if they can find a way to use a battery thats a meaningfully amount smaller along with a gearbox, vs what youd find in something like the Rimac. In theory you could get some of the interactivity back because you are controlling the gears- real gears. But changing gears takes time, and gearboxes add complexity and weight. Im not advocating this approach, just suggesting it as an interesting thought experiment. I try to keep an open mind, though, my preferences are such that it’s becoming harder and harder in this new era- maybe Ferrari will surprise us! They have done so in the past. Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
Observations: Nevera has a 4,740-lb (2,150-kg) curb weight its 120kWh battery pack weighs 1,330-lb (603-kg) https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/ev-pioneer-rimac-not-a-huge-fan-of-current-batteries/
Very respectfully, they have no interest in the automobile as we like it...the model is Apple ! The first grimace they made was when they saw the explosion in PS sales thanks to the V12. The second they will do is when they see the endless waiting list for 167... when he didn't want any ! The third is when they will find that the full electric Ferraris are not selling after 2 years after the effect of novelty, when they imagine that the world is impatient for the electric Ferraris. it is a logical continuation, because when you do not know your past, you cannot correctly position the future. The government constraints are there, indeed, but the best strategy would have been to offer another model, with the V 8( 296 range ) and V12 berlinetta in full NA, even if it means having a V8 NA with a slight hybridization and less powerful than the V6 TT, and on the other hand, the rest of the range in hybridization and full electric to produce clean CO2. On the one hand you kept the tradition, and on the other the satisfaction of the new norms through the group effect. You could even diversify the 167 platform into center mid front and center rear engine... Alternatives there were others, but it still has to be people with an important culture of the brand who proposes the product plans...
I agree with you. Honesty I'm not sure how an electric Ferrari sportscar will work. I think the technology isn't mature enough. Someday we will have to say goodbye to combustion engines whether we like it or not. This certainly will happen but not in the time frame that politicians say. I prefer Porsche's approach. Electrifying their bread-and-butter cars while maintaining their iconic 911. They even invest in e-fuels to future-proof 911s. As once Jeremy Clarkson had said Ferrari nowadays are too arrogant and up themselves to admit any wrongdoing.
I agree with both of you. Keep the electrics for the family sedan/non off road SUV-cars. And keep the turbos and batteries off of V12s. Bought a low mileage (like new) second Gen Vanquish as a keeper daily driver to go along with the 812……now that it is beginning to look as if I need to keep the miles off the SF. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
Manually shifting a gearbox (that's filled with oil ) mated to a motor that makes no sound is pointless. You'd have to wait for a light or buzzer to come on to tell you when to shift so at that point just have it do everything. The idea of torque is that you don't need to shift. Stop trying to make it an ICE. Embrace the suck.
It should be a red flag for you, if you have to come up with 700 gimmicks to make your EV engaging and interesting for the driver. "What about artificial sounds, artificial gear shifts and a voiceover from John Elkann that says 'Buongiorno' every time you turn on the car".
The fact is that, I repeat, Vigna has no identification with Ferrari. He's not a car guy. He was president of STMicroeletronics, a semiconductor company. Previously, he was president of MEMS (sensors) and vice president of AMS (technology). Even though this 2030-35 legislation is coming, there are brands that are being careful with their clientele and the concept of their cars. An example is Lamborghini, which developed a hybrid, but kept an aspirated V12, simply because its customers like a beautiful screaming V12. They have already announced that the EV will not be one of the brand's traditional sports cars. Vigna, on the other hand, only talks about electrification, digitization, these things. You don't see him mention engines, viscerality, passion. He tried to stop the F167 as soon as he set foot in Maranello. Contrary to Vigna's philosophy, see how clever the words of Achim Anscheidt, Bugatti's design director, talking about the successor to the Chiron, which will be a hybrid ICE with an analog interior proposal. “When you look at today’s cars, it’s clear that there are screens all over the place. Where are we going with this? Yes, I believe that customers have the right to full enjoyment in their daily driver. This is the [automotive interior design trend], and we don’t want to call it into doubt. But I'm curious: who still owns an iPhone 3? Nobody, and you probably don't want one any longer. It most likely does not function. What happens to such autos when they reach the age of 20 or 30? Are those screens still operational? Did you complete all of the updates?” “Bugatti models must be able to sit on the lawn at Pebble Beach in 50 years and still function. Similarly, we encounter pre-war luxury autos that still function. What a tragedy it would be if a Bugatti sat there with only dark screens [on the inside].” We'll have to wait to see what solution Anscheidt comes up with. “We're giving it careful thought. I'm not saying we have the ultimate answer, but there is something that makes priceless automobiles and precious brands worth considering for future generations." It can be seen that he understood exactly the big problem of ''digitizing'' cars that must be handcrafted, timeless. And Bugatti is now controlled by Mate Rimac, who created the EV Rimac sports car brand. But he is smart and knows that digitizing Bugatti would be the end of the brand, and he decided to do something artistic, which he himself compared to an "analogue watch" in an interview.
It’s not even that I am against progress, but all of this electrification tech has plasma tv vibes circa 2002 to me. Other people can finance the front end of it at their leisure, but todays tech will seem infantile in ten or so years when so many early adoption issues and costs have been sorted out. As far as Ferrari, their cars will still be pretty and they will be faster, and that’s about the only improvement one will be able to claim over the ICE ones. But I still prefer listening to my vinyl records, scratches and all, over digital recordings … so I’m probably in the wrong demo to have an opinion.
No, he also talks about engines and that Ferrari will have a V12 for as long as the legislation allows it.
I believe from an earlier earnings call they said the future product lines would be 40% electric, 40% hybrid and 20% V12. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
20% N/A (not specified as V12, a V6 N/A actually might be more enjoyable). Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
20% Yes, but that projected mix is for 2030 and beyond. Who knows what models Ferrari will have by then...
Call me skeptical, but if the 167 will be a hybrid why wasn’t the 812, or a variant of it, clearly identified as the last of its kind, like the Ultimae? There’s history of doing this with the Tributo, although a bigger change of course
Because in 2017 (when the 812SF was revealed) the impact of the current EU regulations was not known as they did not yet exist; the Ultimae was made as the 1000th iteration of the Aventador, easy to do when you are constantly releasing special editions (and then there are still a couple custom ordered editions made public afterwards). And, Vigna (CEO) was rumored to have wanting to completely cancel the F167 at the same time the 812SF had already ceased production. Simply put, there was no opportunity to market the 812SF in that manner. And, from all insiders and lack of any electrical warning badges on the F167 mules, it seems quite unlikely it will be hybrid, so, maybe the F167 official name will have something like Tributo in it...(good observation you made)
I have no issues with EVs as an option. I don’t particularly like them though. I had the opportunity to drive a Taycan turbo S last year, which did put a grin on my face. I wouldn’t take it over a Panamera turbo, but if I “had” to have an EV I could live with it. For me they are impractical- I’m a 150 mi round trip to Houston which would make me pucker……. That being said, I hope Ferrari uses the PS as their first throwaway production EV test bed if you will, for teething and sorting out their foray into EVs. The fact that (IMO) it is not a very well thought out car may reflect that. Now putting an active suspension on the 167 with a “luxury” highway/cruiser setting (instead of the bumpy road/non working elevator close door button) would be a game changer. Imagine having what the 812 is- the ultimate proper sports car with a real GT manettino setting- mike drop! Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
I am still hopeful Ferrari will "see the light" and be able to work the legislation and keep its traditions. No one uses an analogue watch to tell the time. They are works of art and highly desirable. I am convinced Ferrari understand this very well. We also forget that advances in fuels, batteries etc etc will help keep the analogue car alive. There are many ways to dissect the future but we should not forget advances in zero CO2 fuels etc etc as one possibility. If I could only get my biofuel from my Ferrari dealer or specialised garages etc etc even at high price this would not stop me buying a new Ferrari
This whole e-Fuel discussion is without any merit whatsoever. Porsche's plans by 2028 would amount to less than 2 ultra capacity supertanker worth of fuel PER YEAR, sure, enough to fill up 8 million cars with 18-gallons each, ONCE, but, hardly worth mentioning in the broad sense. Besides, Porsche's immediate plans are for use in racing series. Otherwise, rather pointless because even if the 'CO2' is neutral, the other by-products are 'harmful' gases: https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2021_12_TE_e-fuels_cars_pollution.pdf
I get it but its a start. The first crappy "smart phone" from Apple was only 15 years ago and look where we are. A lot can happen in the next 10 years. I at least stay hopeful. Otherwise my car purchasing hobby is over
