Good point, by non-defeatable I meant you will still warned, the annoying warnings will still be presented, and with the all digital interior it might block your view of the dash cluster, who knows how Ferrari will implement if it were to actually always take over control of your speed, besides being incredibly dangerous, it would be a total non-starter
The fewer than 1100 is due to the 1063 shown in the NHTSA bulletin that covers all production through June 2020 which few, if any 812SF were produced (for USA delivery) afterwards (yes there are "2021" model year 812SF, but they could of easily been produced in June 2020 as the model year is based on when FNA receives the cars, I believe anything received after mid-August has its model year set for the "following" year. And I know of a few MY2021 812SF that were actually made in calendar year 2021, but just a few and those would not be included in the 1063 count. As for the 812GTS, speculation is all we have, I have not done any sort of deep review but, based on the numbers for sale and that being 6-8% (historical average) I would say fewer than 600 (for USA), they are still in production but the order queue was closed long ago, so final build-out is light and will not increase the total by much
Just to add to this anecdotal tidbit ... many dealers who were getting just a trickle of GTS allocations over the last few months got a whole bunch at the same time for March. Mine got four, another dealer I know of got five. The belief is that maybe Ferrari is about done with them and they just dumped the remaining build slots all at once. Again there's no way to really know, maybe a few more will trickle in, but the theory as some merit. This is to say that whatever the numbers currently are there's not many more of them coming. I only note the above as info for those who might still be waiting for their turn to come up, not for value purposes. That's not the reason I'm buying this car and I hope there's more pure NA V12s in our future even if it means my car will depreciate more.
Reference: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/149040297/ Could very well be the F167 is the end of the V12 standard production (with one or two more Iconas based on the V12 at some point, probably) not including the Purosangue (with its diminished V12 performance versus all the other models using a 6.5L V12), which, as a model, is likely to remain production until 2028 or even 2030. But...I do hold out hope that this entire charade forcing the discussions of end-of-ICE, dissipates into oblivion.
Your final * paragraph has some interesting observations. Regardless of the sales success of the 812 in coupe and convertible guise I believe a different styling design would have a significantly greater appeal. There is ZERO shortage of demand for a wonderful style two seater with the big motor in front of the driver. All the talk of flagship models is a red herring because only the most faithful clients get factory access to the special models. Those serial buyers want every thing dangled in front of them. The official line is that the feverish demand for a four door V12 will be capped at 20 percent of the model mix. The F167 will get it's full share of V12 motors. As for F167's introduction slipping to a later date; one need only look at the painfully slow gestation of the four door model to see that Ferrari takes their sweet time.
Hmm, remember that 812SF demand dropped to near zero (and never recovered) immediately after the SF90 was crowned the top-model/flagship (orders were cancelled and put to the SF90), hence my curious approach to what demand will look like(the all too early SF90 reveal was a colossal marketing failure by Ferrari, absolutely colossal, destroying the 812SF order queue overnight for a model that was well more than 12 months out to first delivery, Ferrari should of waited until 2021 to reveal the SF90), that's why the 812SF had essentially half the F12 production for USA (that plus Ferrari prioritized 812SF production for Europe and china to get ahead of regulations). As for the V12 production, please do realize that the most Ferrari ever made in one year (2017) was 2712 (based on my review of their annual reports), that is 20% of 13,560; therefore, at that level, ALL V12 production could be dedicated to the Purosangue leaving nothing for any other model and still remain at the 20% model mix...of course that is not what will happen, but, just so you realize, there is no excess amount of V12 production, more recently V12 production has been quite a bit less than its peak. To me, it is quite likely F167 production will be rather limited due to the majority of V12s going to the Purosangue and remaining # editions (812C/812CA,SP3), I am confident the F167 will not have similar production rates as the 812 or F12, think Lusso production levels, not for lack of demand, but lack of supply. Of course if Ferrari finds way to substantially increase V12 production (which is handmade, not robotized like the V8/V6) then good for them, but we will have to see if that occurs like it never has before.
There is no more development V 12 post 167. 167 will not be limited Let's see if Euro 7 will be voted on this summer...
What you say is true but perhaps not for the reasons given. Ferrari was unhappy with customers waiting more than a year for their for their Ferrari. Dr. NO's latest pronouncement was quite telling "we don't comment on wait lists". So they created a staged system for supplying new builds. Basically they started processing only a limited number of orders. I.e. the car is all sold; you can't order one. Then a year later the dealer says "we have an allocation for you" so spec your car. Numbers don't lie but what car company would design/build and invest millions in a new car and then suddenly realize they can't supply the engines for their products? All the SF90 proved was that the horsepower wars are alive and well. The tunnel vision on that horsepower number and not how it was achieved carved out a sales niche at the expense of others.
This is one of the central points of the current evolution. This being the example of the PS is evocative. Without the V12 they only sell very few of them. So the nobility and the history of the brand through this engine still exists, and in the current conditions it does not put them at ease. 167 will validate this again, and they will be even more uncomfortable...
I'm not into the minutiae of the legislation but from everything I've read it seems the entire system should be defeatable. Even if it's not, it would take a pretty foolish digital dashboard design decision to be taken at Ferrari to make it unbearably annoying and I can't see that they'd consider it to be in their interests to piss off customers like that. I'd expect something akin to what I have on the Lexus, a very small posted speed limit icon which changes red if it thinks you're speeding.
What’s also interesting is that if the sf90 killed off the order book of the 812sf, it didn’t appear to hurt the GTS ( and the sf90 A didn’t either) Seems like the GTS finished strong. Long live the v12!
True enough! Seems being the first standard production V12 spider in 50 years was a strong motivator, despite the GPFs. Lunga vita al V12!
SF has more produced than F12B. What's important is how many were built like any other Ferrari. Splitting hairs when you start dividing them up. The US has 290 million cars. The likelihood of seeing a particular model Ferrari is very small so including all SF made isn't going to change anything. It is what it is.
Nothing wrong with disagreeing my friend. You say Ferrari should go no higher then 800 hp, I say they should let the sky be the limit. The thing is I admit, there is no way we'll know now who is right, since Ferrari management already agreed with me, and disagrees with you. *hence* I'm always willing to use proxy companies such as Caterham, but oops - they had to sell out. So I am simply asking you to tell me of another exotic sports car company that is following the no more than 800 (let me change that to 700, since you said the 812 is non usable) genius business strategy? Perhaps we start one? Since Lambo, Aston, Rari, Bugatti/Rimac, Koe, all are disagree with you and they obviously are wrong.
As long as Murray is on that line, that's enough to make me happy. One is the latest working genius who caters to insiders, the others let their marketing department flatter the egos of the masses. Every day, I choose a T 33 over a Chiron !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
. Seriously, peace offering , I get you, I really do. I too also prefer the older cars. I also like the newer cars though. There is room for both POVs. Even at the same time. cheers
I love all things sports car old school or new, and I also love electric cars! I went to buy electric BMW i7 with 812 comp. One weighes 3 tons and one 1.7 tons tops I guess and both are the best among each class. Funny I enjoyed how both drives in its own way I just so love this electric BMWs built upon the ICE architecture. I now have i4 and bought i7 today without hesitation. Once you experience this no noise no vibration you can not go back to ICE without spice. So, younger generations who start their carlife with electric cars will have no intentions to drive ICE cars at all if the car does the same job as his electric one. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
And herein is the answer and I agree totally - Nothing like driving the Taycan 4S as a daily but thats where my interest in electric/hybrid stops. T33, Singer, AM Valkyrie - now this gets me excited !!!
Well, the US market is huge, so if the number of SFs here is small, the value of those cars should be higher.
@Solid State Until those international 812SF hit 25 years since production, the small amount of 812SF made for the USA is all there is, definitely quite a bit less than the number of F12 made for USA, likely 1000+ cars less. And, if you look at the number of F12 currently being offered on the pre-owned market, that may be where the 812SF is headed in a few years (rough estimate would result in fewer than 25 812SF being on the market), of course, if the F167 is a big draw and 812SF current ownership required to order, I expect the number of 812SF being offered will approach zero, at least for a while...within the next 18 months, we shall see.
I think more people prefer the design and the fact that it was the PF V12 made. This will hold some merit in the future and you will probably find that the F12's in time will overtake the 812's in value.
