812 Replacement Rumors

I was afraid I’d take the discussion into this direction. I already know all of what the others mentioned, I love the mechanical and technical aspects as much as the next guy. But at the end of the day all the theory talk doesn’t matter, what matters is what we have at hand.

You wouldn’t have loved Ferrari’s V12 if it didn’t sound this good. You wouldn’t have loved it if it was constantly being beaten performance-wise by 4 cylinder engines (before the hybrid age). You wouldn’t have loved it if it wasn’t as smooth as it is. What I’m saying is you love of the V12 because it has those characteristics, not because of the cylinder count itself.

If so, then what good is a V12 that isn’t smooth, doesn’t sound great and is not that powerful (relatively)? My answer to that is I won’t care. That’s why I don’t care if the DB12 didn’t get the V12.

Over the MB TT V12, I’d rather take the V10 from the CGT, the V8 from the 458, or the F
6 from the GT3. I hope I got my point across.

That being said, I do think the F140 of the 812SF with an aftermarket exhaust is the best sounding road-going engine ever. That’s why I bought one in the first place.

Lastly, I just want to add that I’d take the V6 of the 296 over Ferrari’s TT V8 any day every day.

 

I understand your point and it’s well made. We’re having a bit of a circular argument. Of course we all love the sound and feel of the Ferrari V12, but it’s because it’s a V12 it makes that sound. I see your point about a TT V12 in an Aston. I’m not really an Aston fan anymore but I think I would still prefer the TT V12 over the 8. It must still be smoother and torquier?

The new V6 in the 296 is an interesting question. I have a few examples of the Ferrari TT V8 and it’s a remarkable engine to drive in a mid configuration. In theory, the V6 could feel better (I haven’t driven one yet) but there is an undeniable appeal to me of an 8 over a 6. The history of the V8 and the cars it has been used in provide an emotive reason for it. Having said that, I was there to see this year’s Le Mans - won in grand style by a Ferrari V6. And if reports are to be believed, the next hypercar will be a V6. We may well be at the beginning of a new story that will eventually be loved like the V8s. The biggest issue could be that you have the same layout under your bonnet/hood as most SUVs. Not so much of a problem in a 296 but more of an issue above that perhaps. Still, it’s really the only engine Ferrari races in the top series.

 

Do you think the Revuelto sounds as good as a last generation v12 ( like the 812 s/gts ) ?

 

sound of NA engine? propably most owners of new Lambo will change exhaust .....
if you want good sound you need change pipes

 

I thought the traditional wisdom was that multiples of 4 were best given the 4 stroke cycle of a modern ICE it meant that at any given time you have an equal number of cylinders on any given stroke?

 

Ferrari builds a brilliant engine whether its a V6, V8, or V12. They’d really done it all and they always make it magic.

They’ve won with all these layouts- don’t forget the turbo V8 won the WEC in 2017. And we know what they did this year with the hybrid V6. Remember what Enzo Ferrari said about a race car being beautiful. The 499P is downright gorgeous! (Please hire AF Corse to run Formula Uno!…)

The turbo V8 needs a little help with the exhaust note, but that can be done and then it does sound very good. The NA engines of course have that thrilling response. And at times they have been also helped with an exhaust. Its kind of ironic that you need to wind up the NA V8 to get at meaningful power- kind of like keeping a turbo on the boil- and the turbo V8 has power everywhere and honestly the throttle response is wonderful. In more historic cars, does anyone complain the F40 has a turbo V8?

Of course Ferrari’s NA V12 has power and thrilling response everywhere and the modern engine traces its roots to the Enzo. Before that Enzo Ferrari tried several different layouts but it was NA V12 that emerged for lots of reasons. In historic and modern form- Its also a reliable engine that will go for a long time before needing a rebuild (especially the modern one).

The crazy thing is the V6t Hybrid in the 296 combines the best elements of all of these. There is no free lunch and the price to be paid is mostly in the increased weight. Also the exhaust sound is not anywhere near as crisp as the NA engines- but out of the box it sounds better than the turbo V8, especially in the cabin.

So I wouldn’t dismiss any of their engines; but to come back to the 812 successor, for our lives cylinder count used to equate to power so more cylinders = more power = the king. But as you all have astutely pointed out, its not just about power, its also about delivery, experience, sound, etc, Ferrari really should continue the NA V12 because its still the king of the magic.



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I find it funny that rationalization is part of this discussion.

Let’s not try forget this is a frivolous expense- whether one talks of $230k Aston V8 vs a $280k V12 or a half million dollar Ferrari.

So if you want 12 cylinders over 8, cool! Trying to justify one over the other is kind of funny even for a first world problem. Who cares. Get what you want.

Frankly, the 8 v. 12 debate belongs in the PS thread, not here. After all, how many would buy that ugly crossover if it didn’t have a V12 (sorry, couldn’t resist…….he he he). Five bucks says the desirability would not be as fervent. Yes it would sell out because the C suite will finagle it, but how many are buying it because of its looks v. it’s a Ferrari crossover v. it’s a V12………..

Anyway, speaking of exhausts. The OEM modern Ferrari exhaust is a C+ at best. Meh at cruising speed, absolutely pitiful in cities. A- on track/ spirited driving where Id rather hear the engine not the exhaust. The exact opposite of what a daily/cruiser should be. As many have stated and in mine as well, the only way to make it sound decent for the majority of driving is to make it louder. In many cases the trade off is annoyingly loud.

But as I’ve stated before these are sports cars, not GTs. So the focus was on performance, not cruising.

So, back to the 167: it would be nice for Ferrari to tune the exhaust better, hell how about just tune it period!

And bring back hydraulic steering, or do what McLaren have done- a hybrid electro hydraulic system.

And one more softer setting on the manettino for cruising and daily-ing.

If the F167 is good looking and I like it, I’d want to drive it every day- my swan song Ferrari. If not, so be it- there’s not a car out there I really want anyway otherwise I’d have it (no rationalization, all hedonism).


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Couldnt you say the same thing about the 812 replacement- if they said they were putting in something other than a V12 would you be interested? I like induction noise also. Thats one place the 599 had the F12 beat. Cant argue with nicer steering feel and driving your Ferrari every chance you get!

 

Speaking of sound...

 

I don’t know as my 812 has tremendous sentimental value as it embodies a very meaningful and memorable time spent with my youngest. I truly thought my F12 would be it……Until we tracked it and then the child in me wanted more and it snowballed from there- bought a dot 1 RS so we could be on track together (I did say I was a hedonist). He was involved in the whole 812 experience from going to the factory, visiting museums and collections in Italy and culminating at Villa d’Este before we came home to configure my SF.

I’m not a collector, not trying to gain client status, not a cuckold tifoso and not a rich man by any means but I do buy what I want if I can afford it. I would not sell that car if I knew he’d be upset (and he’s 25 getting his doctorate).

As I’ve said before, there is not one car in the current lineup I’d buy (I’d do a Pista [yeah, yeah not current] but I don’t need or for that matter want a second weekend car).

Perfectly content with the SF as it is- maybe a different set of wheels….. If the 167 has similar design cues to what has come out these past few iterations I’ll pass- I’d rather spend the money to re-spec the SF than buy it. (Hyperbole but u get the point)




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V10 in Carrera GT, no contest.

 

Passed and the SF90, passed on the 296 and if the F167 doesn't "float my boat" looks wise and has all that haptic cr*p in it then I will keep the GTS. Hoping it delivers though as nothing else (other than the Valhalla (don't shoot me ) looks interesting right now

 

I’m still angry as hell that I live in a jurisdiction that doesn’t require the GPF filter. Kills the sound and I’ve been warned by the chief mechanic not to do aftermarket exhaust, delete ECU etc. (I know this will spark debate). This is my only irritant with the 812GTS. Otherwise brilliant and I’ll keep her forever.

 

Regarding the multiple of 4…not sure this is a u oversaw principle. Frankly the V10 platform in the other Italian brand sounds amazing so I think it’s beyond the cylinder count.

 

I just don’t get how the GTS’ sound can be disappointing. We have Tubi’d 512M in the garage - nothing compares - plus non GPF Superfast and even a LaF, so I know spectacularly great sounds. Our GTS sounds fantastic. Is it possible US spec is worse than UK spec?!

 

Is the new picture of the prototype with the final body available in high res?

 

Its the same exhaust for all the cars. We just hear different things. I haven’t spent enough time with GTS to know for sure. I heard one go by the other day, he was not on it, just politely driving by shoppes and I thought it sounded very very muted- however, this may be a benefit in todays world. Anyway the one thing I would imagine is whatever comes next will be even more quiet.


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I completely agree ! I think it sounds fantastic !(I do have a simple valve controller.) I don't see the need for many modifications. I have a 2019 Lusso to compare. The 812 sounds better for sure. I am in Canada.

 

EU rules demand new cars are more muted.

 

I honestly think you're one of few who think the GPF 812s are even comparable in sound to the non-GPF version.
Most agree the sound is substantially muted.

US + UK cars use identical part numbers for exhaust so there won't be any variation.

 

They don’t sound like the SF. End of story.

 

I had a pre gpf sf and now GTS. Owned the two together for a bit and the sound is slightly different (tone) but agree that the GTS sounds fantastic. The f8 on the other hand needed some help so new cats and Kline inconel exhaust helped that.

 

They are the same and it does sound fantastic.

 

Just been out in our SF (it’s currently in another country so can’t always use it). It just sounds different to GTS but not necessarily better to me. They’re both brilliant. LaF is quite a bit louder than SF but the loudness is not what I’m looking for. Still, LaF is sensational. As I mentioned before, 512M with Tubi can’t be beat (though it’s not quite so loud inside as out). They’re all well beyond the level that any of them deserve criticism. DPF has not turned either the GTS or Comp into even an average sounding car. At full chat they’re all relentless with the best downchanges you can find.

 

yep...