812 Replacement Rumors

Ohno I really respect your and Isot's design skills but this feels like trying too hard to explain beauty when beauty is unexplainable, it can only be experienced. We all kind of see what was attempted here, and we also all see what has resulted which is an awkward mess when it comes to the coupe. It's almost MBW XM level miss on rear of the coupe, and I'm sure those BMW designers also thought they were being creative and clever and someone could have explained it the way you explained the 12C. Rationalizing coupe design from the only angle it looks okish from also happens to coincide with the only angle no one will ever see it from lest they only choose to only look at their car from their balcony.

Looking at the car (coupe or spider) straight from the front it looks unattractive.
Looking at the car (coupe or spider) from the side it looks stunningly beautiful.
Looking at the car from the rear, the coupe is almost upsettingly disastrous nearing absurdity, the spider is quite beautiful.

These are my opinions, others will differ ... but explaining it doesn't help. Its like a painter trying to explain to me why I'm the one that's wrong for not being moved by their creation, or a girl trying to to tall me that I'm wrong for not being attracted to her ... it just makes it worse.

 

These designs are more and more complex and I don’t think someone explaining a concept is necessarily an attempt to talk someone into liking it. Additionally too many people try to make a final judgement based on 2 dimensional pictures when in reality final true opinion can only be concretized when seeing something in 3D reality. Scale, proportion, details of these cars are only fully experienced when seeing in person and seeing one actually driving down the road.

 

Oh I wasn't suggesting that Ohno was trying to talk me or anyone else into liking it, and like I said I appreciate his (and others') design insights ... all I'm saying is that it won't change anything as to whether one is moved when they see the thing in person.

I have, so my opinions are based on that reality, not the renderings, interpretations, explanations, or anyone else's opinions, and it will be likewise for everyone else. And I'm still in on the Spider if they let me color match some bits.

 

I think when all’s said and done you have to see the physical car to decide - pictures don’t/can’t tell the full story. I’m taking a punt and going for both because the initial impression is more on the lines of a grand tourer in my eyes. I have a feeling when I see it I won’t have problems with the black bits. Anyway will see the coupe next month and see if I’m right!

 

I also respect Ohno and Isot's design skills a lot but I'm also not at all influenced by words when it comes to appreciating art.

Having been married for many years to an architect, I know well the importance that architects give to words and the erudite and often pompous language they use when it comes to describing and praising their projects. Flavio Manzoni, before being a car designer, was an architect and so he is no exception to the rule and let's see why. Regarding the 12 Cilindri Manzoni told Auto & Design the following : ‘”When we design a new model we always start from a dream. For the 12Cilindri, there was a strong temptation to create classic lines, but we said no: this car inaugurates a new stylistic season for Ferrari, it radically changes its codes,” Manzoni continues “One of the salient features of the 12Cilindri is the line that runs along the entire volume of the car, which was conceived as a fuselage inspired by aeronautical and futuristic, almost sci-fi principles. Nothing is left to chance, every detail is taken care of to a maniacal level and the muscles are treated rigorously,” . Manzoni ends saying ‘We have evolved the concept of grilles that look like mouths and headlights that look like eyes, the car has such a strong presence that it can be considered in its essence without stylistic references to other worlds”.

But those who think that this is a language exclusive to the architect Manzoni are mistaken, because it is not. Apparently, this is common practice in Ferrari design office as it is also used by Manzoni’s collaborator Andrea Militello, Head of GT Cars Exterior Design. “On the Ferrari 12Cilindri, the mudguards are treated with great geometric precision: the lines are always the result of intersections of volumes and there is a more functional approach to form that generates an innovative effect”. “The same applies to the architecture of the rear: here too, it is rigor that governs the styling. That of the Ferrari 12Cilindri is a pure transom, obtained by subtraction, reducing the volume of the whole. In coherence with the front, the lights are set inside a blade that runs through the entire volume, and from it emerges perhaps the 12Cilindri’s most characteristic theme.”


Regardless of the beautiful and pompous words used by Flavio Manzoni and Andrea Militello to sweeten a pill called 12 Cilindri, I am not influenced at all by those words. Therefore, based on all the pictures I've seen up to now I completely agree with the assessment you made about the spider and the coupé. Regarding the coupe and as I mentioned in post #264 shortly after the first pictures of the car appeared, it seems to me that there is also a lack of coherence between the rear design of the 812 C and that of the rest of the car.
As I already know from previous experiences that what we see in person is usually better than what appears in the pictures, I reserve a final opinion until after having seen the 12 c coupe and spider alive.

 

It is my opinion that when a designer (or an architect) has to explain his design/creation then there's something wrong (and not convincing). The actual object (result) should speak for itself.

Marcel Massini

 

Well, if it doesn't need any explanation then why is there so much literature about art?

 

100%

Rationalization..........excuses.......

Irrespective of arrogance, or the inability of an "artist" to admit he fkd up, Manzoni can scream from the pulpit all he wants describing the various reasons................... a pig is a pig regardless of the amount of lipstick or descriptors used.

ps Doesn't say much when wives say it looks like a toy..............

 

Literature about art is rarely done by the actual creator/sculptor of the object in question.

Generally: I absolutely love forms, lines, styling, design, taste, simplicity and functionality and am thankful that I do have excellent eyes. This is all about emotions.
Aren't we all little kids in a candy store?

Marcel Massini

 

For me I was really looking forward to the coupe but this is the first time I would have actually considered the spider. Not because I don’t like prior spiders or gts but because I usually only want a coupe design. It is disappointing that I am so troubled by the coupe styling and graphical presentation that I would be left with having to pick the spider so to speak. Never run across that before as I would have typically found more cohesion with both models. I get the Daytona reference but the rest just goes a bit off the reservation for me particularly the rear. 2d or 3d images either way. I see the general v12 concept but it’s like a confused model. Old style references mated to Star Trek. Was really hoping coupe would have intrigued me more and have reversed my intent to buy.

 

No matter how simple or spontaneous something looks: more often than not there was a lot of thinking and meddling until they got there, and artists may give an explanation when they're asked, specially when they have to sell the thing, as in car design. If you agree with their decisions is up to you.

Usually you find more trouble finding people who can explain why they like/dislike something. You see that here everyday, when people gives vague reasons like "looks like a..." or "looks weird". That's normal, buyers are not obligued to know.

Anyway, to each his own, some even liked the F12 uterus or the twisted towel 812.

 

Or another statement: "If you have to explain the punchline, the joke must not have been very funny"

 

Like many things in life, your first impression of something may or may not be correct. A lot is written about wines, but it’s your first taste which determines whether you like it or not. You know letting it breathe for an hour or two or age it in your cellar for another 10 years won’t change your mind appreciably.
Art is subjective and it’s the first view which impresses the most but beauty is often in the details which you see over prolonged viewing . Ferraris are supposed to be rolling art. Some look better in pictures and some don’t so I’ll reserve judgement when I see it in the flesh but one thing stands out in most Manzoni designs- he gets much of it right- the proportions and overall lines of the car- but he usually screws up an area with the details- too fussy or overly wrought- and it tends to be the rear- usually it’s the spider version that suffers the most but here it’s the opposite- the coupes bum looks awkward.
As for the top view, yes it looks like a fighter jet but Ferrari should offer a drone with video camera for free with the car so you can appreciate it. That, or bank your garage floor so the car is parked on its side !
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I’m intrigued by the coupe’s roof. Spider is full in comparison. The rear treatment makes more sense with the coupe. Like you said…in the flesh is key. To me, the shape of the front looks very rectangular. I don’t mind the Daytona aspect, but the mouth looks strange in pics.

 

There's also a lot of bad art out there.

 

I remember my wife and I looking at two very similar houses with an architect/designer. We told her we really liked one over the other but could not explain why. She promptly pointed out the details that made one house look like the caricature of the other. Subtle things that lent a solid cohesive look to one whereas the other looked just not quite there. It was fascinating to me.


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The onus is on us, the observer. We don’t always know if the explanation is simply a proud artist or a sales pitch. I don’t necessarily think all explanation is an effort to convince me to like it. I need to be able to listen to explanation, if it’s there, without being influenced and hold out final opinion until I actually see the work with my own eyes in 3 dimensional reality.

 

Or to use another adage, you never get a second chance to make a first impression.

 

I’ve spent the last 50+ years in the car design business. An important part of that job was to listen to, and ask people what they liked and didn’t like about a particular design. I would ride with them in their cars and have them try to articulate what motivated them to buy their car and to talk about the design of their cars. I attended dozens if not hundreds of ‘consumer clinics’ where we would show people different designs and have them discuss the designs.

When all was said and done, most people have a difficult time verbalizing what they like or don’t like about a design. But 9 times out of 10, they could tell you whether they liked or didn’t like a particular design. The why was usually elusive.

It’s always fascinating for me to read the numerous comments whenever a new Ferrari is introduced. Everyone has an opinion.

 

Just remember the 1984 Testarossa presentation !
Oh my goodness..

 

happy to miss that,couse I was to young
so a could just play with my metal toys and enjoy every second of it. Had red, yellow, and silver one.

 

That is very interesting and reflects my limited experience. When asked why, people often start making things up LOL! My wife does not like the 458 forward designs. Barely likes 360/430. She can’t stand C8, Macs or Lambos. She says they look awkward to her. I think I have figured it out. I think she finds any cab forward design to be unbalanced and gangley. She prefers a mid cab to rear cab aesthetically. So a 911 or 918 is attractive to her. She likes the 308-355 models and highly prefers the Ferrari front V12’s and V8’s to all other models.


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Really, so, in the Louvre there are signs explaining each work presented as to convince you that you should appreciate it?

People like to document, compare, contrast, even attempt to explain the unexplainable, but, what you write is not needed for true art. Where are Michelangelo's writings to explain his creations, Dali? Any of those from history, did any superior artist need to explain their work? Did Gandini need to explain the Miura or Countach?

Ferrari's vettura designers are engineering a result rather than creating a timeless work of art...

 

You either get it or you don't. To me buying a $600k Ferrari is not a decision based on logic. I happen to like the design, but I don't need words by the creator to explain to me why I **should** get it. I don't believe anyone would read the flowery description and suddenly have an epiphany leading to the transferring of $600k from their balance sheet to Ferrari's. If the design team was tasked to engage in marketing in addition to their core duties, then one would hope appropriate compensation was negotiated.

 

Nobody had to explain the Scud. Every 5-50 year old guy looked at that car in 2007 and said I want one.