812 Replacement Rumors

LOL

 

Zowie. Large ego, huh?

I stated 9/10th's instead of 10/10ths or 11/10ths because, in my personal opinion, the final edge should only be pursued in a controlled environment well known by the driver. Others are free to disagree.

The point isn't to push beyond 190 mph for 'hours on end,' or to drive, non-stop, at speeds in excess of 190 mph for extended periods of time. No, the thrill that a number of us enjoy is extraordinary acceleration to braking point, progressively mastering speed through twisties at velocities approaching their car's limits, and doing V-max runs to achieve speeds at or near their vehicle's maximum capacity. And, no, I'm not suggesting that this level of driving is something done every day. That's the stuff of 'occasions' for many of us.

If Ferrari builds a production car that can handle the twisties with an additional +5, +10, +15 mph (or more), there are those of use who will buy that car and learn to master it at these higher speeds on the remote enthusiast roads available to us. Likewise, if Ferrari offers a production car than has a V-max of 275, there are those of us who will, on occasion, thrill to that speed on those same remote roads. The fact that such speeds are not frequently pursued doesn't diminish their thrill or value nor provide a philosophical basis for capping performance levels.

Others on this forum from Southern California who own supercars and hypercars know well, the gatherings of Bugattis, Paganis, Koenigseggs, Ferraris, and Lamborghinis where performance limits are explored. It matters not that you're not part of that universe. It exists and is enjoyed by others.

You're entitled to your opinions. But, they're just that, your opinions. Don't presume to dictate to others. In matters of this nature, there is no "one" reality.

It's not a matter of a future car making a current supercar or hypercar feel slow or obsolete. It's all about the thrill of experiencing the extraordinary at increasingly extraordinary levels. Hell, incremental performance improvements is the sales carrot manufacturers like Ferrari dangle before folks like me. If that carrot does not appeal to you, so be it.

If you've maxed out on the thrill provided by an 812, then seek nothing further. But, don't presume to label or disparage those of us who yearn for more and dream of greater and greater performance.

Finally, I'll leave you with a question: should Ferrari have constrained performance to that of a 275 GTB? There are probably some people who would answer that question in the affirmative. I'm glad that didn't happen since we wouldn't have a fabulous car like the 812.

Let's agree to disagree.

 

It’s not about my ego, there is no need to go personal with a discussion.

In the context of talking about modern supercars approaching an asymptote of performance I mentioned that it would be insane to think you consistently push beyond cars like the 812. That is a simple statement, and a statement I would consider to be self evident.
Nothing you have said thus far nullifies that statement.
You mentioned 9/10ths, not me. So fine, to “push beyond” logically means something like 12/10ths, or maybe 13/10ths.
13/10ths of the 812 would be 275 mph top speed. No one, not you or your friends, are driving around like that. So with regards to top speed my point stands unscathed.
With regards to braking, acceleration, lateral G’s I suppose we could run through all the scenarios as well, but the broad point remains.

You can dream of more performance than the 812, but on public roads you still won’t go faster than an experienced driver in an 812.
You just won’t.

With regards to your “final point” about the 275 you obviously missed the entire point I was making. So, for the third time, I said that for decades it has been true that performance has continued to increase at an amazing pace—but that cannot continue forever into the future. Simple, cannot continue forever is an obviously self evident point not worth arguing about..it is true.

Someone mentioned that if forums like this existed in the 50s someone would have made the same comment, again obviously missing my entire point.
In the 50s a 0-60 time for a “fast car” probably would have been ~10 sec. so, here we are, with a fast car having a 0-60 time of ~3 sec. A 7 sec improvement—great. So, does anyone here think there will be another 7 sec improvement over the next several decades? 0-60 in -4 sec? You step on the accelerator and go back in time? That, my friends, is the definition of an asymptote.

 

Imvho, you are spot on. I recently drove a friend’s Taycan S in anger and it was surprisingly not pleasurable. Maybe too fast for the 6,000 lb mass? It was unsettling on public roads. You’d have to be a Jedi master to control that beast if driven 10/10, and I’m saying that as someone who has raced competitively. The Pista and 812 (and our 408 hp 993TT ftm) are plenty for me.

 

Its not about being able to afford depreciation, its about knowing if you wait a period of time you will get a good car at a good price. Some cars just get their quicker and this "thing" will get there quicker IMO

 

It 100% depends on how you define performance. You have chosen to define performance based on quantitative items, I choose to define performance based on quantitative and qualitative items.

Lets agree to disagree

 

You are playing word games.
Okay, you agree that quantitatively there is an asymptote for performance numbers, you (and no one) should argue that obvious point.
Let’s turn to your term of “qualitative” performance, the crux of your point.
So, what do you mean?
The “x” factor that gives you the smiles and tinglies as you power through a curve, brake, drop gears, set up next apex, power on, accelerate through curve....rinse, repeat.....sound, vibration, smell of leather...
You think there isn’t a limit for that too?
Now imagine an “on/off” super-hyper car with 100,000 hp on roads that bend following the natural landscape that exists today (because the physical world isn’t changing) ...on power, off in 1 sec, turn, G-forces making you nauseated (not nauseous...because few people realize that word means you make others nauseated), on power 0.5 sec, brake 0.5 sec and feel thrown into dash, seatbelt holds you back, turn, swing head other way, nausea, dizzy, back on power and up to 100 mph in 1 sec on a back country road....hope there are no bicyclists, dogs, kids, cars...btw.. less sound from hydrogen fuel cell, quad-turbo EV hyper-mega-supercar thingamajiggy.
You having qualitative fun now? Or..maybe you have already surpassed that mythical “asymptote” of emotional driving...but those years are now behind..better scramble to go get an 812 or a Speciale, if you can.
Yes, let’s agree to disagree.

 

Hopefully it won't be a floaty boat like the Cullinan! That thing felt like a whale when I drove it!

 

Heck no, I only bet on sure things!

 

You've made your position very clear. There has been no misunderstanding, at least, at my end. You believe that further performance improvements above that of a car like an 812 is pointless because (a) it can't be 'sanely' driven on public roads at anything approaching its V-max or handling/corning capabilities, (b) is unusable because it exceeds driver ability, (c) yields no more pleasure than that which can be obtained from a car such as an 812, and/or (d) is so extreme in performance as to yield a physically or emotionally negative experience. These things may be true for you. But, it's folly to believe that they're true for everyone. For those who live in areas where V-max runs are not reasonably possible because of things such as geographic limitation, population density, police enforcement, cars that can corner at extreme levels of speed or achieve incredible maximum velocities may seen pointless. Not so for others. Then there's the issue of talent, experience and knowledge. We're not all the same. What's imprudent for you may not be imprudent for me. The remaining two matters are purely a matter of opinion. You may not like what I like, and vice-versa. Neither of us is wrong. As you're entitled to like/prefer what you do, so is my crowd.

It's absolute hubris for you to attempt to dictate/define what level of automotive performance is adequate/sufficient and that which is excessive, silly and/or undesirable

I've read the various posts you made in this thread today on this topic. Your hear but don't listen. You read, but don't comprehend. Your expressed attitude and approach is reminiscent of the rigid narrow mindedness far left liberals and far right conservatives display when stating political opinions.

Instead of working toward your 11,000 post, perhaps you would find it more beneficial to travel, drive and expand your universe. Who knows, some of your deeply held opinions might change.

Feel free to respond. Do so with impunity. I won't further respond. It's generally folly to attempt reason with limited individuals like you. Forrest Gump got it right.

 

Your response is nothing more than restating my opinions and ad hominem attacks. I think that is plain for all to see.
You and your friends can drive around gleefully at 250+ mph (or to the point of my discussions about the future: drive around at 1000 mph with all your roads and talent and experience), or so you’d have us all believe—though no one reading this believes that. I have read, and I have comprehended; there is no need for you to invoke political similes; I don’t care about my post count; I have traveled a great deal; and while you may try to characterize me as “stupid is as stupid does” I doubt you have sat through the education, training and life experiences I have, and have lives depend upon your decisions as I have...once again, my points stand and you have done nothing to diminish them.
Good night.

 

Time to return to the topic at hand-the 812 replacement.
What would I like to see- a NA V12@ 9500+ rpm with 870+ hp. If hybrid (adding 100+ hp) then please offset the added weight by going CF tub and while at it make it rear mid engine- please Ferrari, feel free to use the La Ferrari as the basis for this.
What I think we will see- a NA V12@ 9500 rpm with 835 hp. If hybrid it will add about 50 hp and will be aluminum chassis front mid engine continuing the Ferrari legacy of front engine super GTs.


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This is a fascinating conversation though, I know there’s a bit of emotion in it but if you could take a step back, I think you’re all right. I definitely could beat myself over a fast road in an 812 with an SF90, I’m certain of it. But also, on a long road journey, I probably wouldn’t be any further ahead of myself. Why? Because traffic, wrong turns, fatigue and to drive on the road in that place where the SF90 is faster is not practical or safe for long. But, should I therefore sell the clearly-too-powerful-for-the-road SF90? No, I love it. And there are some places where I can just about drive the car at 10/10ths (there is no 11/10ths unless you mean the hedge). Not everywhere but some places it can be done safely, it’s just those places are not always readily accessible but since I do long roadtrips in our exotic cars, I do come across them. My wife’s Taycan Turbo S is very fast. I actually love it. If you judge it as a car and not an existential threat to the combustion engine, it is really rather good. Something different and something to be learned, with its own weaknesses and strengths. Most importantly, very very fast and good to drive, especially on the road. Yes, there are diminishing returns as far as added performance is concerned on most roads, and yes on some occasions you can use more power and performance than the 812 has, and yes I would buy a still faster car than the SF90, even though I surely don’t need it for enjoyment (but it has to be enjoyable in some way). I get enjoyment from driving our Testarossa, which is a unique and beautiful experience. So there is much more of what everyone seems to be saying that is correct than you all think, IMO of course.

The one car we have that is only/mainly used on track? A GT2 RS. With ‘only’ 700 bhp. It is not so enjoyable on the road compared with some of the other cars we have, but on the track it’s a beast. Horsepower and too much of it is not really the reason you would not buy a car to use on the road I believe.

 

i think for a new engine you are looking at 900+ hp sine the 296 comes already with 830hp so does the competizione

 

Ferraris history has been to come out with the new regular model after the special edition of the previous with a bit more power and similar performance to the special edition. The 296 is a turbo- east to dial up the hp
Not so easy for an NA engine


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History has changed, the outgoing model (812SF) has been discontinued before its special edition enters production...

The 812GTS will remain in production while its special edition enters production (presumably)

However, based on insider details, the 812SF successor reveal is currently set for end of 2023...and will have a new V12 engine without hybrid assist...

I believe that future is far from being determined though insiders promote the idea it will not have hybrid assist.

 

sorry that came out wrong i didnt mean to compare a turbo to an NA Engine, my argument is Ferrari will certainly make a significant power boost over the current power figure to justify the 812 replacment sitting just under sf90 both in performance and price.

 

Well, I think your point is well taken.

To continue the thought, this new V12 that Ferrari will reveal at the end of 2023 (per @day355), if it is not turbo, not hybrid, and probably smaller engine, then, it is a less powerful car than the 812SF. So, what would it be? A "GT" car and not a sports car at all?

Otherwise, to be more powerful than the 812SF (without any assist) it would seem the block size will have increase, Leiters has directly said they have extracted as much power from the current V12 as possible. So, if the block size decreases, it will be less powerful, if the block size increases, can they get all the parts moving as quickly as needed to make more power (a big challenge it would seem) and be reliable?

Remember, the SF90 replacement will likely be known by end of 2023 and will likely have more power (than the SF90) and the 296GTB will eventually have a power bump (M version or VS), so that new V12, unassisted, well, it seems impossible unless is 8L, to have enough power to be ahead of the 296GTB and be able to increase its power in the future, all without any assistance.

Quite the challenge, can't wait to see what Ferrari creates...

 

Most powerful.

 

Unfortunately cars company succumb to the 0-60 and 1/4 miles timing contests boosting YouTubers garbage content and such.

Today super cars are all ready beyond insane, performance are so impressive that we cannot utilize or enjoy most of them, my 812 is so fast that seriously I find it hard to believe that any of the new toys could really compete with such a machine, super fast it is toooooo fast.

I still remember my first car 1984 Ford Fiesta 1.1L doing 0-60 in probably 24 hours.

When I drive my 812 or my GT3 touring I’m enjoying every sec (besides the traffic) and couldn’t care less about the new tech coming especially in the EV section. as long I can drive and listen to my wonderful N/A (have nothing against turbos) which put smile on my face.

They can put as much watts they want energy never lost even after they will hit the tree so all comes around stays around [emoji3]




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As much as I would love to see a 950 hp V12 in the 812 replacement I just don’t see how it can be done with current design. If Ferrari is saying no turbo and no hybrid assist the only way to get there is with a totally new engine design. Maybe a flat plane 12 spinning to 10k- a modern day boxer engine- a wild guess but if any company can do it it’s Ferrari.
The other choice is incremental increase in hp but lighten the car dramatically - imagine a CF chassis 812 replacement weighing 3100 pounds with 850hp- it would reach the performance goals of being just under the SF90.
BTW has anyone done a front engine CF chassis car?- none that I know of but it would be interesting to see Ferrari do it. A comfortable front midengine super(hyper?)GT with CF chassis.


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Aston Martin One-77 and the Mercedes SLR? I think.


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I don't ever doubt the Ferrari engine designers (as opposed to body designers ). Every single new release of the NA V12 we see posts here say this is the end. No way up. And every single time they deliver. The F12 is ahead of the 599GTO and can't get anymore powerful. The 812 was going to have a smaller block because the V12 is maxed out. Well, they increased the block size and redesigned 70% of the motor. Now there is the challenge of Euro standards. Seems they can redo the intake and come up with programmable sound output. Maybe go exhaust market dependent. They did release a car that's not road legal in 30% of the market. I look forward to the new beast.

 

Yes! You are correct- both were CF tubs and aluminum subframes with front engines but nether one was a light weight- the Aston clocked in at 3600 lbs and the SLR at 3900 lbs.



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