812 Replacement Rumors

Good question, as we know V12 engine production is constrained (maximum ever was 2200 in single year) due to it being hand built and with years of Purosangue orders already queued (and production already underway), just how much allotment will be made available for the F167, and, when exactly will the F167 be revealed/put into production?

Regardless of who can order, it seems that the F167 production will be very limited due to lack of V12 engines (with a presumption that nearly all V12 production will be provided to the Purosangue and other models concluding their runs, SP3,812c,812cA,812GTS,etc). A very curious situation.

Maybe Ferrari will find a way to increase V12 engine production beyond 2200/year, we will have to wait for their annual reports to know for sure.

But, at the end, I believe the F167 will be very difficult to obtain (regardless of how much demand there will be for it..or not).

 

only that the 812 was super in demand at launch and at the end they could give them away

 

And that only occurred due to Ferrari's colossal marketing failure of revealing the SF90 a year too early, had Ferrari waited until May 2020 (or later) to reveal the SF90, strong 812SF demand would of continued, especially because USA production was intentionally limited to fewer than 1100 units (to expedite production for EU and China) and at the moment USA production was being increased, the SF90 reveal occurred and the result was instant destruction of 812SF demand.

 

Also remember the EU has decreed that car makers will not make ANY N/A petrol engines after 2030.
Even for export markets
Many will cease production before then.
So volumes of V12 production is low, and time is short.

 

If the EU forbids making petrol cars for outside the EU, maybe we will be lucky enough to get Ferrari to open up a factory here in the US to provide for the rest of the world what it wants- petrol engine supercars-and break the logjam of ultralimited supply


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That’s exactly what I hope Maranello is thinking.

 

There may not be an EU in 2030, Italy is actively disassociating itself from the EU. from 3 years ago:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/15/majority-of-europeans-expect-end-of-eu-within-20-years

However, if there is I cannot locate an official decree/law regarding production for export markets being limited, can you provide the source?

All I can locate is 2035 being the hard-stop year for petrol engines in EU (but only those currently regulated, meaning, street-legal vehicles).

https://www.drive.com.au/news/european-union-proposes-stricter-emissions-rules/

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4551968-eu-ice-ban-survivors-no-winners

The case of Ferrari:
Ferrari stands apart from the rest because it simply doesn't fit the EV story. It is all about the roar of that ICE engine. Ferrari intends to release an EV version by the middle of the decade. Perhaps it is testing the waters in order to see the market response. I personally do not see Ferrari giving up on its ICE-powered cars. At the same time, Europe might no longer be a viable place to produce those cars, because the change of the whole continent to EV production could leave Ferrari lacking local supplies for certain inputs. My best guess is that it will move and reorient its sales primarily to North America and Asia. It may sell EVs into the EU market, but even those EVs might not be produced in Europe. What all this means for the Ferrari brand and for its stock is a big question mark.

 

Please indulge my going a little OT- I think the people of the EU might start to wonder what is going on when they can no longer buy larger or higher resolution TVs as well as having the affect of causing content producers to stop making things in HDR. Their energy regs will ban most of those- next year.

A Ferrari is a dream for most, but most might wonder how come they can no longer get that nice HDR 85”+ panel……

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1665647227



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EU: Gun, bullet, foot, shoot. (next comes ouch)

 

I think it may play out differently. Remember the Lusso? Released as V12 and then V8 also. I suspect a V8 hybrid is coming for the Purosangue and the timing may allow for V12 production of maybe 2yrs to move over to 812 replacement. Notwithstanding the hype, there is only so much demand for a V12 SUV. Dare I say, despite the absence of aural drama, the V8 hybrid may even be the better car…


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I do, and I believe the Lusso-T was an act of desperation because Lusso-V12 sales were always quite low, it did not help sales to any notable degree.

That said, I do not see that happening with the Purosangue...remember, a V8 would require new type approval and would likely not only be turbo but hybrid, and at that it would easily be more powerful than the V12 (since the Purosangue V12 is very much de-tuned at 725hp), Ferrari has built-in demand by, apparently, requiring purchase of the Purosangue to be on the future list of numbered editions...but, maybe I am misinformed.

 

My sales guy knows I want one, he's currently hinting that my purchase history of a Roma only is likely insufficient to get one and that some kind of used V12 would likely help my case. I'm not particularly keen as I prefer not buying used and speccing my cars myself from new. It's unlikely I'll get a used V12 and will just wait and see when announced if I can secure a later build one by speccing high enough. I don't mind going nuts on spec as it will likely be kept forever and if I don't have to fork out for a used car I don't want then that money feels less problematic being thrown at carbon.

 

ban for export markets? seriously? EU is some kind of dictatorship? they want to decide what kind of vehicle people in America and rest of the world should drive? it's ridiculous ....

 

It’s is just that the EU leaders in their wisdom want to show to the rest of the world the only way to save the planet.
It is more than ridiculous, it is frightening to see how our European leaders are convinced that they are the centre of the world. It’s becoming like an holy crusade. Most members of this elite have never traveled outside of the EU and have no idea of how it goes elsewhere.

 

So they are intent on collapsing their own industries? Clever !!.

Maybe that's why Ferrari is a US listed company now, easy to change corporate HQ?

 

... one day they will rename New Jersey to New Maranello
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Ferrari will never ever leave Italy.
Go there, you will see....

 

It's the trademark of Left Politics in Europe.
The guy in charge of the EU climate gate, Frans Timmerman's, is an extremely left politician.
The lefties in Europe think they are superior to everyone else.
"Look at us being so inclusive and correct.... we will exclude everyone not complying to our view of the world".

Or to quote Animal Farm:
"all pigs are equal, but some....!"
And yes, Frans looks like a pig too!

 

Which ones ???
Icona, SF90 VS, half an hypercar ???

 

The all electric Purosangue

 

Yes I agree. The F12 while a nice design was missing something. While the F12 is beautiful, the 812 is sexy.

The 812 looks like a $400+ car, the F12 does not.

Absolutely not a fan of the Roma……at all.


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Good point .Do you think they launched 296 too early too ? Have a feeling SF90 is suffering a bit too..especially resale.Different price point of course.

 

I think the technically proficient SF90 suffers from a reputation for modern blandness. The 296 shows that hybrid cars can be fun?

 

The reason for my comments regarding the SF90 is it destroyed interest in the 812SF, and the SF90's unusually long gestation (pre-covid) and then extended delays (post covid) resulting in first customer deliveries some 18 months after reveal. That is unheard of in Ferrari's world, typically production commences almost immediately and customer deliveries within 6-8 months from reveal (of any new model).

The 296 is completely different, it was not replacing the top model (as the SF90 did) and the only model "similar" to the 296 (F8) was essentially "sold out" by the time the 296 was revealed. So the 296 did not destroy the order queue for any existing model.

Just the same, the 296, like the SF90, has an unusually long gestation with only a few cars "pushed out" before a critical July 6 2022 (EU regulatory date) to satisfy the 296 as being an existing model in the EU. And then the gestation continued with production seemingly ramping up in the past month.

It seems Ferrari hybrids take between 12-18 months after reveal before first customer delivery. Compare that to other recent models, 812c, SP3, Purosange, production began for each almost immediately after reveal with first customer deliveries within 8 months of reveal.

As for SF90 re-sale, the market is 'flooded' with 25%+ of total (estimated) USA production being offered as pre-owned. Price point, unsolvable problems, flippers, etc all contributing to excessive pre-owned supply of the SF90 with many languishing and almost all are experiencing significant drops in asking price. We will see if the SF90VS requires current SF90 ownership to order and if that helps reduce the available inventory (which will necessarily all re-appear after SF90VS deliveries commence).