812 Superfast instrument tested by Quattroruote Magazine

Indeed the times with "unknown drivers" probably cannot be compared, the "unknown drivers" being certainly different.
Back to topic, my guess is that there is probably more difference than what Ferrari says between the F12 TdF and the 812, because the TdF is lighter and has better tyres (for track use) if I'm not mistaken. The added power of the 812 is unlikely to completely compensate for that.
Having this time for the 812 may be a way to have the flagship V12 "faster" or "as fast as" the upcoming 488 VS - the 812 not being intended at all for track use, people should understand it could be "relatively" slow in this exercice, but Ferrari may think its potential customers would not understand.
My guess is that, for instance, the 812 will be faster in the straights than a 488, but it will have to brake sooner and will pass the corners less quickly (all because of weight).

 

The official factory Fiorano lap times are a better standard to compare the performance between models.
Of course there are always variables such as tire choice and tire pressure and track and air temperature and even driver talent which can influence the times.

 

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Notice this pic of a full scale 812 model and it does not have the silly vent on the corner edge and also not on the rear facing part of rear fender. Also the rear is different and how the lights sit. This model is actually elegant. I wonder what the hell happened.

 

Aero happened. It's now supposed to be elegant; it's supposed to be functional.

 

Great find.

True, that looks really nice. No vent and no black hole in the bumper either. Wonder what the rest of that car looked like.

 

Functional aero is the Aston Valkyrie - which is all about aero and making loads of downforce (combined with low weight) for admittedly limited usage on-track.

Those little vents and things that, in my opinion, ruined the shape of the 812, look like afterthoughts and this is evidenced by the picture above. The performance gains are probably minuscule whereas the weight is the biggest performance killer. If you're not gonna kill on performance, at least make it a looker.

 

The model does look much better than the real aero laden car.

So let me understand why they got rid of Pinnfarina and brought design in house. We are told this was to make the engineering team and design people work hand in hand. Looks to more of a case of Manzzoni and co coming up with the nice clay model, and the aero people then turn up with poop scoops and gouge out some holes.

Great....

 

I can't argue engineering with an engineer, but you know better than me that every little thing helps. Every hole in a Ferrari is functional, unlike in many other cars. Otherwise we would still be in the '50s...

 

Of course there are those who disagree with your negative opinions regarding the looks of the 812 and appreciate the design aesthetic.

Ferrari is making engineering progress with each successive model. Aero is vitally important in that regard. Every model spends hours of scrutiny and modification in the wind tunnel.

Which designs of the current range do you like?
And is this due to some engineering superiority or is it more about aesthetics.

Form or function first?

 

As an engineer, I agree with you - every little bit helps. The engineer in me also thinks it's a bit of a pig, weight-wise ;-)

The aesthetic in me, though, is a bit of design snob and grew up appreciating all things Pininfarina and other landmark Italian designs (and also some American designs) and thinking that Italian cars, and Ferraris especially, should be paragons of design - beyond reproach. Other countries and companies can have the highest tech and performance, but Ferrari should have the flawless design. The 812 is far from flawless.

I don't even bother looking at the pictures thread because every time I look, hoping to be convinced otherwise, I just can't find a picture where it looks good - the big puffed-out, squared off rear fenders being the worst offender.

V12 sounds great, though and I can really understand the appeal of this over any other engine.

 

Since these cars spend the majority of their time cruising the streets of Monte Carlo or Florida, I would say that what people appreciate most of these cars is the form, the colors and the sounds. These, of course, have to be backed up by the numbers in order to maintain bragging rights and mystique, but big square rear fenders don't move the needle enough on the performance side to offset the aesthetic debit, in my opinion.

I like the 488 because it remains lithe-looking and doesn't have any offensive details, though the rear flank scoop is really a bit over done with the concatenated @-shaped opening that runs back to warp around the rear wheel opening. I find the current designers are more focused on clever graphics rather than functional shaped that are pleasing to the eye. The LaF is another example of the over-done graphics focus with the hyped-up "tenso-struttura" graphics - basically emulating a tent or canopy being tensioned down. I think that design philosophy leads to making the car look long and bulky in the center.

 

I really like the LaFerrari design. I’ve seen a few in the flesh, a gorgeous Nero Daytona with “carbon fiber look” roof just last week. (All of them have a carbon fiber roof of course.)

The 488 isn’t much of a design departure from the 458 I’m not crazy about the shape and size of the side vent either but appreciate how that is done to feed air to the turbos.

 

And some of these cars such as the 458 and 488 spend time racing.

The 458 and 488 won at LeMans and at IMSA

aero truly does matter. Just recall how Porsche pulled out of LeMams when two of their cars went airborne.

 

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If you really believe that, then please explain the fuel filler cap on the F12tdf (arguably one of the most performance oriented models) - I would be really interested in the functional reason why it does not sit flush with the body. In my opinion Ferrari does not design road cars purely functional - just like no other car manufacturer does that.

 

If it's there it means that it doesn't get in the way of the airflow.

 

Or the filler cap and tube that mostly blocks the aero effect vent on the 812.

 

From 291k to 391k. Some really expensive optionals on that 812.

also, roughly 1600 kilos for a big gt car is more than reasonable to me, as it's not supposed to be a track toy but a comfortable (and relatively agile) car.

 

One must remember that officially the Ferrari GT offering is the Portofino replacing the California. The 812s is the Ferrari flagship high performance sports car. The fact that it is luxurious and mid-front makes the journalists and the lookers on constantly use the GT moniker. A true GT does not have the performance of nor compete with an Aventador. Otherwise, it really has no competition. A track car or a track toy is also a whole different animal as well.

 

God the 991R is fast!

 

You really want to believe!

Lately, Ferrari in many of their designs come up with clever aero bits here and there that lighten up the designs, they are theoretically functional but the real aero gain is laughable within the overall aero figures. That much I realised long ago. Aero bridges and all the like, those are near zero compared to the well known racing solutions that provide actual downforce: big proper wings, flat underbodies and big diffusers.

Tdf filler cap is the perfect example that in the small details they're going completely for the looks, not for the tiny percentage of aero gain. Of course it gets in the middle of the airflow and of course a flush one would be marginally better, but they chose the cool cap because is a nice retro detail albeit just a marginal aero loss. Still with the Tdf, the rear quarter haunch triple vents, do you really believe there is a clear advantage because they say it releases pressure from the wheel well or something like that? Then all the rest of the world is wrong not opening triple vents in their cars!

 

from 2013!

aero test model >

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It's ok to introduce functional aero elements that are nicely styled, for example the fender vents on Porsche GT3, tdf, etc., but no amount of downforce- unless it's a racecar- can justify this level of ugliness:
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;-)

 

I agree. I just took delivery of my new Dodge SRT Demon. I would swear that, past the quarter mile, even my F12 feels faster. These numbers for the 812 are mind blowing IMHO. Mine should be in production soon. What a masterpiece!!!