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812 VS Rumors

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by Frenzisko, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    853
    Austin TX
    Further, this patent looks have been started in 2016 to be "in response" to Euro 6 regulations regarding cold start emissions:
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0269749117318857
    and
    https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_Euro6-VI_briefing_jun2016.pdf

    From this link regarding details of the current invention:
    https://www.autoevolution.com/news/patent-reveals-new-ferrari-v12-engine-with-spark-coupled-injection-138524.html

    Direct fuel injection is also confirmed, as well as "spark-coupled injection."This strategy makes the engine operate well with a long spark production delay in each cylinder, injecting fuel just before the production of the spark to generate turbulence near the spark plug at the moment of ignition. In other words, spark-coupled injection technology stabilizes the combustion with greater incoming airflow rate and greater outgoing exhaust gas flow rate, heating up the catalytic converter from the moment you start the car up.

    “For this strategy to work, the injector must be arranged near the spark plug.” Ferrari also explains the spark-coupled injection is active in low-load conditions such as engine start-up, and once the catalytic converter is up to temperature, the V12 enters its regular operating mode for maximum performance. It’s not rocket science, but it’s an improvement nonetheless.


    Unfortunately this patent is of little impact in light of EU regulations that require (for Gasoline Direct Engines - which includes every Ferrari engine made in the past 2 decades) GPF be fitted, there is no point in doing anything special to more quickly heat the catalytic converters to achieve maximum efficiency.

    And, more to the point, Ferrari has already detailed that the 812GTS will include GPF devices, so, game over, the patent isn't really of significant importance.
    https://corporate.ferrari.com/en/ferrari-812-gts-v12-spider-returns
     
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  2. Maximus1973

    Maximus1973 Formula Junior

    Oct 29, 2016
    470
    Thanks for explaining. As much as I want the V12 to remain, it will influence my purchases in the near future.
     
  3. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    853
    Austin TX
    You're welcome, thanks for the push to get me to more thoroughly review.

    Personally I think the MY2019 812 is the end of the best of the V12s (and apparently some MY2020) due to lack of GPF devices. Of course no one really has heard or knows exactly what the GPF will do the character of the 812 sounds or longer term service / warranty issues.

    Also I hold MY2019 as the best due to lack of nannies which are included on all MY2020 and later (each are apparently defeatable but are still there) at this time, in the USA those are: Advance Front Camera on top of the windshield that works in conjunction with Lane Assist (to keep you in your lane) and Traffic Signs recognition. Just more distractions.

    But, terms of the engine itself, any 812 without GPF, to me, is most desirable.

    To that end, an 812 FXX would make complete sense, no GPFs, no nannies, 900HP track only beast.
     
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  4. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
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    Hence why the difficult decision for people to trade an 812 on a GTS imo.
     
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  5. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    853
    Austin TX
    Exactly, the desire for an open top experience (or, and this may be more likely, to keep your "position" for future exclusive models as a preferred client) must be very strong to select the 812GTS over an 812 if you are aware of what is occurring in regards to GNNs (GPF, Nannies, Noise regulations for EU)...by the way, I just made up GNNs as shorthand :)
     
  6. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
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    Agreed GNN's (nice acronym) will mean pure cars will be much sort after. Take was an example the 981 GT4 Cayman has seen prices start to increase due to the 718 GT4 Cayman not being that great (30hp more with 80kg weight added and who knows what GNN's).

    Keeping ones position is the queue will not be a motivator going forward IMO. People are fearful of the future and speculators have been trashed. And if u really want a "special car" rather pay over the odds on the 2nd hand market.
     
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  7. F12JAJ

    F12JAJ Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2016
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    My understanding is that the only reason MY2020 812s don’t have GPF is due to some ratio of cars already produced prior to 2020 that allows some type of an exception for sunset models whose production is ending (probably in 2021) not to be equipped with GPF required exhaust modifications.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  8. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    853
    Austin TX
    #858 JTSE30, Oct 27, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
    This is interesting in two ways.

    First, you have heard an actual reason why MY2020 812s do not (yet?) have GPF: does that mean that GPF will eventually be introduced into MY2020 812 production? Technically at this time Ferrari is not yet required to comply with EU regulations that would require GPF, this is due to Ferrari's derogation expiring 1/1/2020. So my current thinking was that Ferrari will build as many non-GPF 812s as they can destined for the EU with such production ending by December 1 2019 (or earlier) to allow time for shipping and customer delivery to occur prior to 1/1/2020. Then non-GPF production continues for all other destinations and then at some point next year begin building 812s+GPF to resume deliveries to EU and from that point forward all 812 production includes GPF regardless of destination. And all 812GTS production includes GPF. One possible other reason for lack of 812+GPF is this: Ferrari may not yet have 812+GPF production ready, could be supplier issues, could be technical issues...I think there is something going on here because even the 812GTS sound clips to date do not appear to reflect GPF fitment, even the Ferrari website 812GTS "sound clip" is of the F152M (project Type of the 812SF, F152MS is the project Type of 812GTS)

    Second, you have heard that 812 ends with MY2021: I know this is likely to occur because of EU CY2022 changes that will require chassis redesigns so most if not all current Ferrari models will sunset in 2021 unless Ferrari receives a derogation from such regulations. If 812 is end-of-series at that time then Ferrari can continue production of up to 10% of CY2021 total into CY2022 without having to comply.

    I believe, at this time the 812 family is not end-of-series (from what I can find both 812 and 812GTS would have to be end-of-series as the entire model family has to be discontinued for end-of-series regulations to have effect - as reinforced by the 488 family being end-of-series to allow production of Pista into CY2020).
     
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  9. GCSF

    GCSF Rookie

    Sep 25, 2018
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    Bernhard Hellmich
    EU emission norm 6d is in effect from 1/1/2020 for all cars that are newly homologated (New models such as the GTS) while it is in effect for all other newly registered cars from 1/1/2021. This may explain why MY 812s still have no GPF (they were homologated before 6d was out).


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  10. ferrarifanatic25

    ferrarifanatic25 Formula Junior

    Apr 9, 2009
    694
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    Does anyone know if the regulations apply to any car manufactured in the EU, or is it destination specific?

    For example, Mclaren Senna’s sent to the United States have a much louder exhaust than the ones delivered in the EU. I know that Ferrari has stated that they will not be taking this route, but if they were to change their mind, would it even be legal for them to do this?

    Maybe they could offer an optional Ferrari Genuine “GPF Delete” exhaust system to their other markets? They have done this with OEM exhaust systems for previous models and I would think this could be a very popular (and profitable) option for non-EU markets.


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  11. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    2,947
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    The EU rules do not typically apply for exported cars, but for a relatively small manufacturer it may be a concern to maintain different versions of the engine - also because now the ECU is programmed for a specific set-up, it's not just about replacing some parts.
    Mass manufacturers continue to install old versions of the engines in the cars exported to less demanding countries, but that's not probably a good option for Ferrari.
     
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  12. ferrarifanatic25

    ferrarifanatic25 Formula Junior

    Apr 9, 2009
    694
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    I understand the issue with maintaining two versions of the same engine given that removing GPF would require an ECU remap.

    However, maybe they could offer the alternative exhaust as a “Ferrari Genuine Accessory.” You wouldn’t be able to order the car without the GPF, but you could order the alternate exhaust and ECU tune to be installed by your dealer. Ferrari could charge whatever they want for this and pass through any added costs to the customers. This way, they can tap into the aftermarket exhaust market and make additional profits all while giving owners the option to increase the sound from their cars without worrying about voiding the warranty.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  13. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    If you accept that GPF is effective in reducing harmful particulates do you think as a public good governance that they should in the political climate of 2019 be rolling that out everywhere not arbitraging ? Just saying.....
     
  14. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    Press release could say we are pleased to confirm that as the US is way behind other countries on certain environmental issues we will be pleased to be supplying cars to just that market with poisonous particulates !

    Thats not my view but it dies sound ridiculous, like saying a country doesn’t require seat belts so let’s leave them out.
     
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  15. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3
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    Cigarettes pose way more harm to humanity than the "harmful particulates" emitted from today's highly efficient combustion engines. So following your logic, in the political climate of 2019, shouldn't the entire world be rolling out smoking bans as well? Just saying...
     
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  16. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    Cigarettes mainly affect the person concerned and perhaps the taxpayer having to pay to sort out their bad health (unless incremental cigarette taxes cover the costs).

    With cars the poor sod jogging in an urban park doesn’t choose the breathe our foul particulates. Which can be eliminated for a tiny drop in aural pleasure from our super cars.

    Also we should clearly be trying to be the best we can be whilst preserving people’s choices that DONT affect others. Saying well people do one horrible thing (smoke) so let’s do others (poison innocent urban dwellers) I don’t find a compelling narrative.

    Unless we accept minor amendments to our wonderful cars “they” will just eliminate them, the world doesn’t need 800bhp noisy polluting vehicles.

    We do not do ourselves any favours bitching and moaning on here about a few decibels sound traded for clean air. And here there is pages of it and from presumably successful people, many with children.

    I do get that engines are much cleaner and there are also other priorities. But may as well pick off the low hanging fruit also.

    Respectfully..
     
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  17. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3
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    And yes I would for sure ban cigarettes - ridiculous pointless things which if invented today would be banned immediately
     
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  18. ferrarifanatic25

    ferrarifanatic25 Formula Junior

    Apr 9, 2009
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    Unfortunately I must admit that this is a very good point. They’d be eaten alive in today’s political climate. Such a sad time to be a car lover.


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  19. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3
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  20. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
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  21. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    853
    Austin TX
    This is a re-post but topical here:

    Do you ever have a fire in your fireplace? Do you use wood for that fire? If so, congratulations, you just emitted more PM than years of driving your pre-GPF 812.

    Do you burn candles in your home? Congratulations, you just emitted more PM than years of driving your pre-GPF 812.

    About those Lorries (trucks) and that thick black smoke, chances are it included much larger particles...just the same, yes, very tiny particles are dangerous in the lungs because they body cannot flush them out and they become the basis of an infection, but you have to ingest them for a long time and in fairly high concentrations:

    https://www.lung.org/lung-health-and-diseases/lung-disease-lookup/pneumoconiosis/pneumoconiosis-symptoms-causes-risks.html

    But, looks like we already covered this:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/146653122/

    bottom line, the air won't be any cleaner versus what the 812 emits now, it's just not noticeable

    some more background:

    https://www.epa.gov/pm-pollution/particulate-matter-pm-basics

    https://cfpub.epa.gov/roe/indicator_pdf.cfm?i=19
     
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  22. ferrarifanatic25

    ferrarifanatic25 Formula Junior

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    Ok so let’s say I concede that the GPF successfully reduces harmful pollutants. I’m not here to argue too what degree that it will make a difference when applied to our beloved Ferrari’s, as that has been discussed in several hundreds of other pages on this forum.

    But what about the dB regulations? Could Ferrari produce a separate exhaust that still utilizes GPF that is simply not subject to the EU noise regulations? You can’t really argue that making the car louder would make any difference from a socio-political standpoint, can you? I can’t imagine there being too much public outcry about this? The vast majority of sports cars on the market today come with a “sports exhaust” option that simply make the car a little louder. This should seem an easy money grab for Ferrari in their non EU markets.


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  23. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    I agree, Scraggy’s argument is convincing for me too.
     
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  24. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    A good sentiment for sure but respectfully statistically erroneous. The number of 812 VS will be what, a couple thousand? The number actually driven much less! The number of motor vehicles produced each year is over 100 million (commercial + passenger). That number probably doubles if you include power equipment and anything with an ICE engine. Maybe more. Seems most of EU drives filthy diesel powered cars as well.

    NASA could not create an instrument sensitive enough to measure the effect on global particulate pollution caused by the 812 VS with GPF versus without GPF. Therefore let us have our half million dollar supercar without GPF. If the debate is not based on science then that's a different argument. The GPF-less 812 VS will not do squat to our children except possibly addict them to the glorious sound of a most excellent NA V12 masterpiece. :)
     
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  25. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ
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    Let ford, nissan and the mass market deal with environmentalists.... specialists like ferrari and Lambo make no difference to air quality regardless.... let us enjoy them in peace. And if anyone wants to take my Marlboros from me, i have two words for you, and they aren’t polite
     

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