83 Mondial QV - EV conversion project using Tesla LDU

Hi:
My wife greenlit me taking on a new project a few weeks ago to entertain me for the next few years; the idea is that I would find it a lot more enjoyable than just buying a new c8 corvette (my original desire). Considering I WFH now, she wasn't wrong. Her only stipulation was that the car must seat the whole family (two of us plus our 7 yr old son) and her initial vote was a BMW 2002ti, Volvo P1800, or something like that.

The plan was always to buy a car and then boost its performance. Living in CA though, I figure that even if swapping a modern engine into an old car, things may change in the future and with a stroke of the pen my legal care might not be so legal anymore (see also firearms laws in CA). This then lead me to looking at EV conversions. While 5 years ago, the state of the art was taking an overgrown forklift motor, fabricating a custom adapter plate, and then beefing up the stock transmission to withstand the torque of the EV motor AND/OR taking a wrecked Leaf/similar car wholesale and shoving it into your target chassis, it seems like the current state of the art is taking a Tesla LDU and using all aftermarket control systems for the motor control, charging circuits, and battery management system (BMS).

Net result will be a 435HP car with all sorts of knobs for me to play with; the AEM VCU200 enables all sorts of fun things like controlling current delivery based on vehicle speed, etc. Launch control, burnout modes, etc should be possible.

I'm not a purist or brand snob but I did want something more exotic: while i originally looked at the 308GT4, I settled on a Mondial. The "saddest" part of this upgrade is that I won't be able to really use the gated shifter for anything other than a fancy switchgear; the 308GTS conversion done by Eric Hutchinson used a Porsche G50 transmission flipped upside down with a shortened bellhousing. Since there's a finite supply of those 80s porsche transmission and pretty much every mid-engined kitcar specs them in, those transmissions alone go for $14-15K. yeah, I'm not excited about paying for that when I could still use the mechanism with microswitches to select R, N, D, and potentially an alternative drive mode (maybe launch control or burnout mode).

I found one in SoCal that has a decent body/paint 2 weeks ago. It has just under 68K mi, some rust/nicks in the paint but good enough looking that I won't bother fixing the paint until AFTER the car is running as an EV, a pretty recently redone interior, a running engine with a sketchy water pump, and a nicely shifting transmission (not that I will be using the last two items).
- I also ordered a mid-rise scissor lift that arrived 3 days ago. Works just fine and will let me drop the subframe more easily in my 1-car garage (because SF).
- The car arrived 2 days ago.
- Passed the essential "my kid fits" test
- I shot a video of the engine running and have started gutting it today.

I'll start listing the stuff I don't need on here, eBay, or maybe BaT for the big components (basically everything related to the QV engine including the transmission, ignition, cooling, fuel tank, and fuel systems.

With my last project car, a Tbird I used for the 24 hours of Lemons for nearly 10 years, I went from an automatic to manual swap, upgraded the V6 from 140HP stock HP to 215HP using Mustang/Windstar minivan head/intake parts, tackled a V6 to V8 swap including a full engine rebuild, learned how EFI tuning works using Moates Quarterhorse, significantly upgraded the car's cooling/oiling system, pieced together a big brake upgrade, and finally significantly upgraded the suspension by adapting inserts originally designed for a Mitsubishi 3000GT. A lot of junk for a "$500" car but a) the judges thought we were harmless and b) we were never in contention to win anything (except the cooking contest when I mounted a corn extruder to our engine mad-max supercharger style and made fritos at the race).

This new project will cost a good deal more in parts and I suspect far less items will come from Home Depot, Lowes, or Alibaba (see: https://electricgt.com/shop/the-ultimate-tesla-swap-package/) but I'm pretty confident I have the determination and most of the skills to tackle this project. What I don't have, I'm confident I know people who can take care of the rest (aka friends who weld professionally, ME friends who are far better at CAD than me, etc.)

I love how 80s this car is; considering my desk is 6 feet away in the same garage, its the most hilarious "office furniture" of all my friends.

PS. the box for the teapot is on the roof of the car so the car doesn't get too close to the swing arm of the garage door. The lift must move UP to unlock before it can drop down and I didn't want the car's roof getting uncomfortably close to the garage door.

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It's funny to me: i remember when gas prices crested $5/gallon back in 2012 (or thereabouts). People were crying in the streets. Gas is now nearly at the same price again in the SF Bay Area and I hear far less crying. Apparently us frogs are used to the boiling water now.

Most Ferraris will never be DDs; I imagine that even in 2050 (or likely as early as 2030-2040), there will be people willing to pay exorbitant prices for synthetic e-fuel that's "carbon neutral" for their vintage toys; the rest of us will accept EV conversions for their vintage toys.

The only thing I'm fairly dead set against is the following: just like I refuse to buy fake testicles for a neutered dog, I don't plan on installing speakers to pump out fake engine noises for my EV conversion.

 

My wife and I took our son to Napa for a few days to get out of the city so I only have had 15 hours with this car.
- First impression is that this car is pretty straightforward: the connectors are easy enough to deal with (vs the fiddly connectors on my 2002 Audi S4). Even if I've never dealt with a car with this kind of primitive fuel injection, its easy enough for me to understand and remove. In comparison, I HATE to work on my Audi. So far, I think I've made the right choice for a project car.

- I'm to the point where I can drop the subframe and am just awaiting a wider ATV jack to arrive from COSTCO on Monday or Tuesday next week: all electrical connectors, the brake line, the ebrake cable, the throttle cable, coolant and oils are drained, fuel tanks drained, and the throttle cable have been disconnected. This SHOULD be as straightforward as lifting the ATV jack, strapping the jack to the subframe, separating the 18 bolts that hold the subframe to the rest of the car (4 per forward mount point and two bolts in the back), lower the jack, and lift the body of the car upwards using the scissor lift. I also removed all the other bits that were in the area (oil cooler, all the fuel subsystem bits, the vacuum and coolant reservoirs, etc.)

I've taken pics of all the stuff I've removed so far but will go into sales mode once I have the engine dropped and lifted off my subframe.

I did shoot these two videos for my amusement (and to include whenever I list the engine+transmission for sale).


... and without the mufflers (for giggles)


I also noticed that (no surprise) my bushings are all shot: the 30mm bushings in the front and rear, the swaybar endlinks.
I also noticed that my front pass side steering boot is ripped to hell as well.
I put off buying a hydraulic press for years but i suspect I'll be buying one next week from HF because if I have the subframe off, I might as well replace everything.

Q: It seems that I (24) 30mm poly bushings total -- 8 per side on the rear and 4 per side on the front. Does this sound right?
Shopping list:
https://www.ferraripartsexchange.com/products/smonrh
https://www.ferraripartsexchange.com/products/front-suspension-bush-set-smonfs
https://www.ferraripartsexchange.com/products/rack-and-pinion-spare-boot-rubber-mondial

When I pull the subframe, I plan to clean off the decades of grime and hit it with POR15 before installing new bushings.. I'm leaning towards the semigloss (vs gloss) black stuff as I still have the Tesla LDU brackets to fabricate/mount. I already have some other degreasers and access to a power washer.
Q: Do I need the POR15 cleaner/degreaser and metal prep as well?
- If so, how much if all I'm going to deal with are the subframe and the Upper/Lower a-arms for all 4 corners. Any deeper rust work (I noticed some bubbling at the bottom of a door) I'll leave to a professional and will tackle that AFTER I have the car running as an EV.

Finally, I plan on leaving the shocks at all 4 corners alone until I have the car running as an EV so I can check the corner weights. I suspect Ill see a gain of <100LB with more weight up front but there's no sense in messing with springs/shocks until I know for sure what I have is no longer adequate. Ditto with brakes.

 

Oh, good point about the booster. I'll put that can back in the keep pile.

I plan to have two boxes. One in the front where the spare tire well sits and one in the rear where the stock tank and above where I will mount the Tesla LDU. Similar design to the 308 projects.

I will have 43kwh across 16 modules for 400v using the OXDP modules from electric GT. It's not the cheapest option but they will be new modules and these folks seem to offer decent Q&A support. I'm just a guy who wants to build an interesting car vs a business so this helps esp when there's no central repository/book you can read that outlines all the steps.

https://electricgt.com/shop/the-ultimate-tesla-swap-package/

 

Making sure the HVAC system works properly is on the project list but I wont' tackle any of that stuff until after the car is running on EV power.
Brakes are essential of course but I don't plan on upgrading them beyond stock until after I have the car running as an EV to see how the car really performs. I know that pad material tech has come a long way since the 80s and you'll gain a lot from just using a better, more modern pad but out of curiosity, in 2021, are there any big brake kits that steal from the parts bin of newer Ferraris? With the last car I really modded to hell (my old tbird for lemons racing), the simple "+1" upgrade is to go from single piston calipers stock to dual piston calipers on the same 10.8" rotor using calipers from the Mustang GT. The next step up is to steal the even bigger calipers, brackets, and 13" rotors from a 99-04 Mustang Cobra. IIRC, my 2002 Audi S4 had a similar upgrade option by diving into the parts bin for the Audi A8 or S8 of similar vintage.

Q: Has anyone developed a similar upgrade path for brakes? if not, what are the other options to consider besides the SuperperformanceUK kit

With a simple cursory search, it sounds like some people voice that you can really mess up your brake bias by upgrading your front brakes way beyond the stock rear brakes (which you need to keep b/c of the e-brake).
- Now, I'm not sure how much I believe this a real concern. From a practical standpoint, 80% of your braking is done by your front vs your rear brakes anyway.
- My tbird, which I abused plenty at Sears point, had way more braking force applied via the 13" cobra setup vs the stock rears and I never once felt the bias upset the cars ability to stop/slow when necessary.
- I'm already planning to enable regenerative braking which will in effect add more rear braking force when regen kicks in. This makes me inclined to believe that I could get away with even more forward brake force than with a stock Mondial QV engine.

 

I'm sure the stock brakes with modern pads are adequate. However, this car will be making 435HP if all goes well and without ABS, larger pads and rotors enabled by beefier calipers will help with brake fade and other heat soak issues. This car doesn't have ABS and since I'm not a purist, I'm ok with looking at more modern options if there are any.

I'm already planning for 17-18" wheels so rotor diameter shouldn't be an issue.

If I do decide to stray from stock, what are my options?
I see a $1700 kit based on hispec calipers on ferraripartsexchange.com

 

TIL
1) Electric Pressure washers are nice. I've used my neighbor's gas powered one but it was always almost more of a PITA to setup than it was worth. This $100 Ryobi from Home Despot worked without any drama. It's nice to be able to blast 40yrs of grime off this rear swaybar within 1 minute of deciding to do so.

My 7yr old is gonna have a blast with this (might as well put him to work) on the rear subframe

2) My kiddo also liked the 20T harbor freight press I picked up (he loved using it to crush cans). I've used these before to build all sorts of things but never got around to buying my own. there are 24+ bushings that need to be replaced on this car so having one in house is totally worth it.

3) Finally, I started tearing into the front suspension. Got the front spindle off and the busted bushings pushed out.

Q: I find it curious that there are lots of shims everywhere. I made a note of where they went (ex the caliper bracket to the spindle and around the ball joint assemblies but is this a typical ferrari thing? Will I have to consult the workshop manual to make sure my new ball joints are positioned within spec or do i just slot them in if I notice there is slop between the fork in the control arms and the spindle.

Q: What's up with the two wires going into the front wheel hub -- one goes to the back of the spindle and the other goes to the brake pad (guessing that's a wear sensor)? Do the aftermarket pads include these sensors as well? What happens if I leave them off -- I'm likely ditching the little electronic diagnostic panel next to the shifter anyway in favor of something EV specific.

Finally, I'm a little annoyed once I realized that the mondial is a hub over rotor design. This aren't going to make a brake upgrade easy so I might as well keep the stock braking system in place until I decide its inadequate or not (just like the shocks/springs).

 

Thanks for the explanation. I was going to make a joke about relocating the check control display to the glove box... but then I just learned how to open the glove box 30 seconds ago thanks to google + this website

 

Popping out the old bushings from the front UCAs and LCAs was no big deal; the only surprise I got yesterday was when I thought there was no way to remove the bolt that held the LCAs to the Mondial's frame. 30seconds later I realized that there was a nut on the other side of the frame and what I thought was a flange on the frame was actually a U-shaped bracket that bolts on. Crisis averted.

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Today, a friend's company gave him a "mental health day" and he decided a good use of his time was to help me drop the rear subframe. This went fairly smoothly with only two hiccups:
1) I didn't quite realize that this car had a hydraulic clutch. That was simple enough to disconnect.
2) While I had disconnected the shifter linkage rod at the transmission, the shifter rod itself was preventing the subframe from dropping down. The two nuts (a longish one that the shifter linkage threads into and a second nut that locks it in place) had to be broken free. That took a little bit of cursing and some creative bracing to break the connection free while laying underneath the subframe that was already disconnected from the car and held by the ATV jack; I was paranoid enough to place two jacks under the subframe as insurance just in case the ATV jack gave out BUT it was still a little unnerving to have that much weight in a position where it could easily squish you like a bug.. and having to use a sledge to break this stupid nut loose.

So, bottom line is that the subframe is out and there's just enough room to maneuver it in my garage to lift the engine off the subframe.
Today was a good day.

Q: What are the recommended lift points on the engine for an engine hoist?
- I see the engine mount point and I have a balance bar but nothing on the other side is immediately obvious.
- Once I can lift the engine, I can place it on a pallet and take a bunch of pics for sale.

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FWIW, I didn't encounter any drama with cutting off one end of the bushings and pressing them through with the 20T HF press. All gave up without a fight and only one broke the weld on the tube which I will need to tack the replacement into place. 8 bushings down (plus the two bushings in the rear swaybar droplinks which needed encouragement) and 16 more to go (aka all of the UCAs/LCAs in the rear).
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On multiple subframes
- While the idea of multiple powertrains makes sense for racing (I had a full 302 Windsor V8 and transmission mounted to a subframe welded to a shopping cart bottom that I took to lemons races as a spare), the difference between an ICE and EV powertrain are significant enough that its not worth entertaining the idea of swapping them out. Think about it: gas tanks, how brake boosting is handled, and even the clutch would have to be dealt with/swapped out.
- The subframe itself doesn't seem prohibitively expensive (maybe $500 or so on eBay) but all the extras (brakes/shocks/control arms/etc) will add up. I just blew $1500 or so on rubber bits for this car's suspension. I'll admit the QV engine sounds cool but the march of technology has made it an anachronism performance wise. If I loved this engine more, it probably makes sense to just have a second Mondial to go with the engine. However, in that case, given my limited garage space in SF, I'd be better off with a 308 or some other Dino based car (say a 360 Modena)

On EV choices
I'm expecting to spend at least $42K on EV parts -- basically this setup plus the Quaife LSD and an oil pump to allow the LDU to run upside down. Cheaper options for EV components exist but even though I'm building this car as a journey (vs just the desire to own an EV or a fast car), at some point you gotta decide at what level does it make sense to farm things out. I'm building this car for me (vs offering this as a business) and only building one of them so at some point, you gotta decide at what level to outsource. I could buy a junkyard LDU and modify it myself or I could pay ElectricGT to add the LSD and inverter board for me. Ditto with modifying the used modules vs buying new battery modules that matches voltage requirements. I think of it like making lasagna. Sure, I've made my own sauce, noodles, cheese, and sausage before but its kind of a PITA; nowadays, I'll make the sausage and sauce myself but I'm OK buying the noodles and cheese.

To answer your question about range, its going to be approx 100-120mi based on the EGT OXDP batteries and the Tesla LDU. EGT's OXDP modules are not the cheapest per KWH but they are some of the densest which can make 400V. The Tesla stock modules would give you 2x the KWH (90KWH vs 42.3KWH BUT fitting (16) 3.1" x 11.9" x 26.2" modules is not practical in a Mondial). Now, there are some folks which can modify the Tesla modules to be more in series or you can do it yourself (40v nominal per module so you'd only need 8 modules to hit 400v with half the KWH)... but if I OXDP modules are within my budget, I'm not super excited about hacking into a Tesla module of questionable repute. Finally, my initial priority after rebuilding the suspension is to fab the brackets to mount the mockup Tesla LDU. Then the real LDU goes in and I start thinking about the battery box. If at this time battery tech improves, I'll have the option to buy the new stuff instead of what's currently in my plan.

I live in SF so A/C is a nice to have but not a requirement. 12V based compressors exist so getting the HVAC to work is firmly on the secondary priority list.

It's been a while since I've had a project that I found this fascinating. If I can unload the engine+trans for $17-18K, I'll be totally happy.

 

I don't know why this forum only allows edits within 20 min.
I meant to say "12V based A/C compressors and 12V heaters exist so getting the HVAC to work is possible but firmly on the secondary priority list."

 

I've took the axles off and disconnected the LCAs from the rear subframe today.
I also had to remove the rearmost exhaust header so the engine will lift off the frame.
A neighbor got me worried that some of the white stuff in the trunk was asbestos but it seems like you folks don't agree; that's nice. https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/mondial-boot-trunk-lining-asbestos.584923/

Q: I'm still looking for guidance on how to lift the engine+transmission off the subframe. What attachment points should I use besides the engine mount for lifting?

It also occurred to me that I will need to disconnect the ebrake cable from at least ONE of the rear spindles in order to take them off the subframe. Currently, I unbolted the whole spindle/hub/rear disc off the car as one heavy unit so I can refurb the LCAs.

Q: Is there an easy way to disconnect the ebrake cable from the sprindle OR do I need to pull off the rear brake disc on at least ONE of the sides? I never liked working on drum brakes so I'd like to avoid having to pop off the disc if possible.
Thanks in advance.

-g

 

Thanks. I suspected I'd have to use straps because there werent any nicely balanced bolt positions at the top of the engine. With the Ford engines you can either use the bolts that hold the engine intake to the block or brackets that come from the factory mounted to the exhaust manifold bolts. It's not practical to use the engine mounts because they are at the bottom vs the top.

I now have enough to do today; thanks in advance for any advice on my second question.

Is there an easy way to disconnect the ParkIng brake cable from the rear spindles?

 

Q: what's this crud in the fender well? Is it just 40 years worth of crusty bits stuck to the car or some kind of sound deadening material that is chipping off of the underlying plastic/fiberglass.

My bushings are arriving today but I am cleaning out this crud before I rebuild this front suspension. I'm planning on maybe painting the fender well but obviously that works best with a clean fender well..