85 Mondial: 2 steps forward, 2 steps back...

Sorting things out... kind of...

Found that cleaning up the oil level sensor on the dipstick didn't help the "low oil level" warning light situation. I'm tempted to short out the terminals to see if that makes the warning light go away (for testing purposes, only - to see if the sensor is indeed at fault). I don't want to blow a fuse or anything. Any ideas?

Got the "maintenance due" light turned off! I found the black box behind the AC canister in the front trunk compartment. Took off the top silver cap, pushed a small phillips screwdriver in the hole and "pwang", it felt like a spring let go. I guess that this is the actual reset because it works fine now (light is out). The procedure is actually in the owners manual I've found out - but I didn't have one at the time.

Tore out a mile of wiring: stereo, two power amps, a cell phone base unit, CD changer in the trunk, antenna amp, a Clifford alarm system and a remote radar detector. All circa 1985! I also had to repair the abortion where the alarm system was cut into the ignition wiring. All good now. The car now starts with the key everytime, the first time. Not the second or third or fourth or fifth try. Damn alarm system. Only thing left is the Sony faceplate in the console - just to keep the hole covered until I install a new stereo, and the Bosch electric antenna. Does anyone know who was the OEM for the Mondial stereo from the factory? I'd like to replace with the original brand - just a more modern unit.

Fuel injection: Working on it. It now idles rough, and when I try to open the throttle to even pull the car out of my garage it sputters and backfires - thru the intake it sounds like. Ran fine when I bought it. Took it for a ride with the kids when I got it home - All ok. Tried to pull it into the garage later that night and "cough cough, wheeze wheeze" ever since.

An interesting symptom: At idle, it runs, but is rough. I open the throttle body valve by hand and absolutely no increase in rpm (or it sputters as explained earlier). BUT, when I release the throttle lever back to the idle position, it momentarily smoothes out the idle for a second or two. Then it just goes back to "lump, lump, sputter, lump lump"... I'm thinking low fuel pressure (a semi-uneducated guess). Any ideas?

Thanks for listening. Any suggestions?

- Jon

 

Just tried the propane tank and hose trick AND the starter fluid trick to see if I had any vacuum leaks. None found. Back to the drawing board...

Also just found a nasty burn mark on the connector next to the relay board/fuse block. Something overheated once upon a time.

Interesting radio note: The factory parts book shows a radio mounted in the console. It's a Pioneer autoreverse cassette stereo, you know, with the old volume and tuning knobs! That explains the "cassette compartment" in the console. Hey, it was 1985.

Any ideas on the rough running?

 

Thanks Guys-

Symptoms get worse - Now it ONLY idles. Any attempt to advance the throttle results in either NO increase in RPM or a backfire into the intake - not a loud one but I can hear the sensor plate bounce off its "backfire bumper".

Go with me on this one and see if it makes sense: Throttle moves throttle body valve open. More air into the engine means more air past the sensor plate. Sensor plate moves which allows more fuel to be injected, BUT no more fuel is available because something silly like a failing fuel pump or clogged fuel filter. As if it's only getting enough fuel to idle - nothing more. Backfire is from a lean condition - too much air, not enough fuel. Follow?

I also read somewhere in K-Jetronic troubleshooting (www.auto-solve.com/mech_inj.htm) that a typical Bosch fuel pump will draw between 5-8 amps. Mine draws 9+, which could indicate a fuel restriction (filter, again). Then, again, maybe 9+ amp draw is normal for a F car fuel pump.

What gets me is that it went from running perfectly OK to running at idle at best - all in a matter of perhaps a half hour (15 minutes one day, 5, 5, and 5 on other days, while I troubleshot the problem). You never know what "10% ethanol" can do, although I'm sure the car is no stranger to it at this point.

Cliffbeer: My understanding of the ECU system is that it is for the Lambda control. I considered it as a possibility also but now I don't feel I have even the "limp home mode" or open-loop running - not unless I limp home at idle. A malfunctioning Lambda system will run rough, sputter and have loss of power but to have nothing above idle? I still have the trunk apart from gutting out the stereo crap. I'll check and clean the connectors on the ECU anyway. Besides, Mondials NEVER have electrical problems, right?

Javelin276: I wouldn't say you're "not much help". Just writing this down and bouncing it off others IS help.

Sorry if anyone feels I'm wasting bandwidth with my "measly Mondial" questions. It's a boy's dream come true to finally own an F-car (OK, so I'm a soon to be 46 year old "boy"). I just want it to run better than my 1983 Jeep Scrambler with a serious vacuum leak.

And, hey, the topic IS called "Technical Q & A". Boy, do I have a lot of "Q's"!

- Jon

 

Speaking of fuse boxes...

I don't know what gives, but I must have the missing link of fuse boxes. ALL pictures, wiring diagrams and manuals I've seen show fuse boxes with the "torpedo" type fuses. Mine has the modern blade type.

That, and the fact that...

A. The fuel pump runs as soon as the ignition is turned on. I've read that it isn't supposed to start until the key is turned to the start position - and then stop as soon as the engine stops - like in a stall condition. Kind of a safety thing, to keep fuel from spewing in an accident.

B. The fuse that is supposed to be for the fuel pump, isn't. It's not the one the manual tells me is supposed to be.

C. The fuse that IS the fuel pump's is a 20 amp fuse that the manual tells me is for the air conditioning.

D. What the heck is going on here? Maybe it's because it is a "California car"?

Anyway, time to jack up the car and install that new fuel filter.

Wish me luck.

- Jon

 

It's not the fuel filter.

 

Bummer. I give up. "Uncle".

If it were earlier in the day I'd be calling a flat-bed to take it to the repair shop.

Nothing for nothing but if I did this earlier in the week I'd have had it back by now and I would be driving and enjoying instead of... "this".

I can't even drive it the one mile to the shop. Nothing but rough idle and if I try anything more with the gas pedal it backfires through the intake.

One helluva way to spend a vacation, huh?

At least it was a learning experience. What I've learned I've yet to figure out.



One more thing. Reminds me of a funny story my brother told me. He said that near his job there is an excellent "Italian car" repair shop that also works on the occasional Porsche. Anyway, he's talking to the owner and looking at all the F-cars in the place when a guy comes in to pick up his Porsche. The owner says to the guy "When are you gonna make the move and upgrade to one of these beauties?" he said, pointing at the Ferraris.

The Porsche dude says "Why would I want one of those?... Your shop is always full of them!"

You can add mine to the roster.

- Jon

 

Bill-

Thank you. You know, I checked that earlier in the week and it WAS moving freely (with a little dampening, as designed), but I never watched it while it was running. Maybe it DID get stuck shut or maybe it doesn't move as freely when running.

Hmmm... I'll check in the morning. Right now I'm gonna have a couple of Molson XXX Premium Ales and forget about it for the night.

- Jon

 

Here it is - a new day and a new fresh brain to think with. Yes, even AFTER my Molson XXX Super Premium beers last night ("in moderation").

I agree, it's gotta be lean. Why? Here's my thoughts. Correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Rough idle and backfiring through the intake is a vacuum leak or other lean cause. No vacuum leaks were found. Doesn't mean there aren't any. Just means I looked several times with propane and starter fluid. Nothing.

2. Revs only increase (above the rough idle) when the throttle is CLOSED. The engine also smoothes out here, too. As if the engine picks up revs and runs better when you take your foot OFF the gas, instead of the other way around. Putting your foot on the gas results in the backfiring and NO increase in revs. I'm thinking that hitting the gas pedal is allowing SOME additional fuel to the injectors but not enough considering the air flow has increased also. It's still a lean mixture, I'm assuming. But when the throttle is
closed, the airflow is reduced and when it combines with the previously slightly more fuel than usual, TA DAH! - proper air/fuel ratio! BUT only for a second. Then it's right back to a rough running idle. Follow my thinking?

I've got the weekend to myself (wife is out of town with the kids, visiting her sister, half a continent away) to think and poke around some more. You guys have given me some more things to check out. Last night I was pretty much at the end of my troubleshooting options with no where else to go. If I have no luck by Monday, THEN it may go to the shop. They're closed for the weekend, anyway.

Question: Doesn't the car run in "open-loop" mode until ALL the sensors tell the ECU it's OK to go to closed-loop mode? ... and that it has to be at full operating temperature when it goes closed-loop? ... and that even open-loop mode should run better than THIS?

That's what has me puzzled.

 

YAAAAAAAA HHOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IT'S ALIIIIIVVVVVEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (from "Young Frankenstein" - Gene Wilder)

Thanks 91tr and rscapri2600!!!! If you were tall and blond and about 23 years old (give or take a few years) I would kiss you!!!!!

Oh yeah, you would have to be female. Did I forget to mention that?

It idles!!!, It revs!!! It does everything but slice bread!!!

You guys put me on the right track. I was reading and re-reading the posts and all my K-Jetronic books, Ferrari shop manuals and wiring diagrams and I kept coming back to the next (logical?) step: You guys had to hit me over the head with it but it finally sank in:

CHECK THE FREQUENCY VALVE WITH A DWELL METER!!!!

I for some unknown reason kept putting it off because I thought the open-loop/closed-loop scenario took it out of the picture when it was in open-loop. NOT SO says 91tr and my Bosch manual! A K-Jetronic basic system doesn't use it but then again, it's designed without it. A K-Jetronic system with Lambda control NEEDS it, REGARDLESS of open or closed-loop running!!!

I have seen the light, and it is good!!!

Or is that just the sound of my new (to me) Ferrari running Smooootth!!!!

Reminds me of a line in an old M*A*S*H* episode. Feel free to use it if you like:

While sipping scotch, Col Potter says: "There aren't enough "O's" in the word "smoooooooth"..."

Did I say my car runs "smooooooooth" now? I thought I did!

OK, Jon - Settle down.

What exactly did I do? I disconnected the wiring to the frequency valve a couple of times to check the connection. Looked clean, but it doesn't take much to make a faulty connection. I also traced the wiring in the diagram back to the ECU. Guess what? No connections in-between! So, I unplugged the ECU and took a look there. Connections looked clean, but you know how that goes. I put it all back together, hooked up a dwell meter, turned the key and ... TA DAAHHH!!!!!! Don't get me started, again!

One thing I failed to mention (DUMB ME) is that I ALSO listened for vacuum leaks with a mechanic's stethescope - with just the hose end - no probe attached. I didn't hear any vacuum leaks but guess what else I did? I listened to the frequency valve. Guess what I heard? Nothing buzzing!!! Guess what I thought at the time? "Maybe it doesn't sound obvious or maybe this isn't the valve that's supposed to buzz..."

Guess what's BUZZING now, and yes, with a stethescope it IS OBVIOUS!!! Now I know.

Did I mention this is a learning experience?

The problem remains that the 4 cyl dwell scale is showing only 12 degrees. I know it's supposed to be around 45 degrees when in closed-loop. I have some more testing to do. But for now I'll just do my happy dance and chant "It Runs!!, It runs!!"

Thanks to all of you!!!

- Jon

 

I took the car for a short ride after I put "Humpty Dumpty together again". I was daring - I even put the carpeted cover for the ECU compartment back - screwed it in and all. Boy, am I living life on the edge or what?!

Seriously, though. The car ran great! Not a sputter, not a hesitation, nothing that I wouldn't expect out of the ordinary. Just wonderful!

I'm going to confirm my dwell readings from the frequency valve with a second meter, tomorrow. 12 degrees seems a bit out of whack considering how well it runs now. I'll also finish up by checking the closed-loop/open-loop running, as you suggested. It's all downhill from here.

Left to do? Well, one rear side window goes down REAL slow now. It was much faster the other day. I've heard this is "normal" for Mondials. Not going to lose sleep over it.

Also, still trying to get rid of those stupid idiot lights in my console. One down, two to go. "Bonnet open" and "Low Oil Level". Bonnets are closed and the oil level is fine. And these two lights trigger off the large "red alert" light at the bottom. Not going to lose sleep over them either.

Thanks again everyone. I am now extremely happy with my recent purchase!

- Jon