Buy

85 Testarossa Starting Problem

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by wpdent, Feb 13, 2004.

  1. wpdent

    wpdent Rookie

    Feb 13, 2004
    28
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Patrick
    I recently purchased an 85 TR. and have been enjoying it. It has recently developed a starting problem though. When the key is turned to start, the starter will turn but will not turn the engine. Now, if I leave the clutch out and leave the car in gear and try to start it again (troubleshooting purposes only), the starter will move the car. I don't think it is the electrical, or the starter motor itself. Is it low battery voltage? My tools and test sets are at another location so I am stuck! Any ideas?

    Many Thanks,

    Patrick
     
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    21,620
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    If the starter motor spins and the engine crankshaft does not turn, it has to be a mechanical problem somewhere in the starter motor shaft -to- pinion gear -to- ring gear -to- flywheel -to- crank path. When you say the car will lurch forward during an in-gear no-clutch start attempt do you mean it keeps lurching forward strongly or that there's just a brief lurch impulse at the initial engagement (and then the starter motor spins freely as during your clutch-in start attempt)?
     
  4. wpdent

    wpdent Rookie

    Feb 13, 2004
    28
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Patrick
    I am certain that it was not a brief lurch impulse at the initial engagement. It is a strong engagement and will maintain it if desired. The only time the motor spins freely is when the cluth is in, and the car is in neutral.

    Thanks for the quick response!
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    21,620
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    So when it's lurching forward if you depress the clutch will the starter motor keep spinning the engine?
     
  6. wpdent

    wpdent Rookie

    Feb 13, 2004
    28
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Patrick
    While the car is moving forward, as far as I can tell, the engine is not turning. I may be way off on that. As a matter of fact, the more I think about it, the more I am wondering how in the world this is happening.
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. wpdent

    wpdent Rookie

    Feb 13, 2004
    28
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Patrick
    With the starter engaged (key in start position), the car will move. If I depress the clutch, the car will stop moving, the sarter will continue to turn, but not turning th engine.

    P
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    21,620
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    I hate to say this, but the only condition I can think of that can cause that behavior is if the bolts holding the flywheel to the crankshaft have sheared off. Can you can see the flywheel/ring gear turning thru the access port when the starter motor is spinning (even though the engine crankshaft isn't turning)?
     
  10. wpdent

    wpdent Rookie

    Feb 13, 2004
    28
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Patrick

    !!! O MAN!! Well, I'll let you know what I find. Thanks for your time...

    Patrick
     
  11. gabriel

    gabriel Formula 3

    I'm confused. If the the starter engages the flywheel, and the flywheel bolts are sheared, how could starter power be transmitted through the drivetrain and still not turn over the engine?

    Now, I have seen worn teeth on parts of the flywheel ring that caused intermittent problems with starting, as well as some starters in poor condition that were puzzling at times...
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. Exoticbro

    Exoticbro Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    203
    St.Louis, MO
    Full Name:
    Chuck Ligon
    I am no expert on TR clutches, but with my
    experience with clutches and power takeoffs in general.
    I would think if the starter is engaging and can transmit
    power through the trans. and not turn the engine over
    the flywheel would have to be independent of the crank.
    I would think with the clutch depressed the flywheel would
    spin VERY fast and make a lot of noise.
     
  14. wpdent

    wpdent Rookie

    Feb 13, 2004
    28
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Patrick
    Hello! It is not a mechanical problem, it is electrical. I have verified this by looking at the ring gear while having the engine turned over and by pulling a plug and checking piston movement. While I had the plug out me checked spark. I have been reviewing 91tr's support on a similar starting problem. I have started his testing recommendations. Here is what I have come up with.

    There was power on the starting injector's fuse when cranking? - I don't know where that is, unable to test.

    1. Find the water temp switch pointing out the LH side of the thermostat housing (it is not either of the gizmos on top of the thermostat housing with the molded connectors). It will have 2 separate spade-type connectors -- one red wire and one orange/black wire. The red wire is the main +12V supply from the relay "C" in the black triangular box to run the injection system. This wire should be +12V during starter cranking and during engine running. - There is no voltage at this point at any time. I traced this back to the harness that goes into the triangular "box" and confirmed I do have continuity.


    The attached diagram shows the 4 white horizontal connectors at the bottom of the fuse panel (and you should be able to probe the wire connectors with everything plugged in):

    2. The violet wire in 5th from right position of the "x" connector is the +12V output from the tachometric relay and should go +12V during starter cranking or engine-running.
    *****Confirmed. No voltage

    3. The two white/blue wires in the 2nd position from the left on the "y" connector are the output from the starter solenoid and should go +12V during starter cranking only.
    *****Confirmed. Tested okay.

    4. The 4th (beige wire) and 5th (beige/black wire) from the right on the "y" connector are the fuel pumps -- should go +12V during starter cranking and engine-running.
    *****Confirmed. No voltage

    My fuel pumps are good and the wiring from the fuse box down to them is also good. I can put 12v in the socket and the pumps run fine (one at a time)
     
  15. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    21,620
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Well, that makes way more sense Patrick...did you really think the engine crankshaft wasn't physically turning at first!?

    With regard to the preliminary electrical tests -- are those your answers to the tests (after the *****) ? It's unclear to me what your results from test #1 were/are. If you fail test #2, you will automatically fail test #4 -- so the next step would probably be to find the tachyometric relay and try to make some voltage measurements at its various inputs and outputs and at the sensor(s) at the flywheel, inspect their connections, etc..

    (I need to log out now, but if you'd like some suggestions let me know.)
     
  16. wpdent

    wpdent Rookie

    Feb 13, 2004
    28
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Patrick
    I had my doubts, the engine turns over so much smoother than what I am used to, I didn't know what to think until I was able to get some help so I could see what was going on. I drove it in the garage! What could have happened from then to now? I was crazy, this is my first Ferrari and I want everything to run as smooth as possible. I thought I had a case of bad luck. I feel good about it now and I have learned so much about this car in the past couple of days during the troubleshooting.

    Anyway... No voltage in step #1. The red wire at the themostat.

    Where is the tachyometric relay located. What should I check for?

    One other thing, my car has Bosch Relay 0 332 204 101 for both fuel pumps. The owners manual call for Bosch 0 332 014 113. So of course I tried the published relay and it pops the fuses. The 101's are back in there now with new fuses.

    Many Thanks,

    Patrick Dent
     
  17. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    21,620
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Just back for a quickie...

    The ...113 relay spec in the TR OM for the fuel pumps is a misprint -- you must use the ...101 relay in the US TRs (what version TR do you have?).

    There might be a correlation between failing test #1 and failing test #2 (i.e., the tachyometric stuff using the same +12V network that you're measuring as bad (no voltage) -- but I'll double-check that later.

    Regardless, by failing test #1 -- you should go on and check the "c" relay stuff in the triangular black box (which I think is described in that other thread).

    Got to run again...
     
  18. wpdent

    wpdent Rookie

    Feb 13, 2004
    28
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Patrick
    Hey Steve:

    I have an '85 TR , US version. The 101 relays are back in place. If the "c" relay is in the triangular box, and it has the fuse built in to it, it is fine. I just bench tested it and it seems to function normally. Do I need to check it on the car or is it ok to bench test.

    Patrick
     
  19. pdavis

    pdavis Rookie

    Oct 31, 2003
    37
    Morristown New Jersey
    Full Name:
    Preston
    My 1988.5 TR never starts on the first key turn but always starts the second time I turn the key. The first time I just hear a whining noise that last as long as I hold the key in the start position. As soon as I turn the key off and back to the start position -- the car starts and runs beautifully. My two cents? pd
     
  20. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    21,620
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Patrick -- I checked the TR US wiring diagram and the tachometric relay and the protection relay "c" are so independent that you'd have to have two distinct failures if they've both got problems (i.e., failing tests #1 and #2).

    If the 87 terminal of the "c" protection relay goes +12V during starter cranking, but that red wire on the coolant thermoswitch doesn't go +12V then you've got a problem in the {terminal 87 of relay "c" -to- Connector C12 (the big round one) -to- the injection ECUs -to- the red wire on the coolant thermoswitch} path.
    (Are you sure you've got the right gizmo and the right red wire? The other wire should be an orange/black on that device.)

    For the tachometric stuff, the tachometric relay is mounted behind the fuse panel with five or six other ECU-ish devices. It's a Bosch relay 0 280 230 006 with a 6-position connector:

    1 violet wire on terminal 87 -- this line should go +12V during starter cranking or engine running (this is the same thing you measure in test #2).

    2 black wires on terminal 31 -- ground

    1 white/red wire on terminal 1 -- this is the "impulse" signal from the LH coil (derived from the flywheel sensors)

    1 white/blue wire on terminal 50 -- this line should go +12V only during starter cranking (this is the same thing you measure in test #3).

    2 light blue/black wires on terminal 15 -- should go +12V with the ignition key in either the "on" or "start" positions.

    1 red wire on terminal 30 -- always +12V (even key "off")

    If all the power and ground signals seem present at the tachometric relay, and the only unknown is the "impulse" signal from the LH coil, you can try swapping the coils (but it will only run on one bank if the problem was a dead LH coil) -- and I'd make the simple dc resistance checks on the flywheel sensors even before going after the tachometric relay.

    Let us know how it works out...
     
  21. wpdent

    wpdent Rookie

    Feb 13, 2004
    28
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Patrick
    Hey Steve:

    I am on a business trip today. I will be home later this afternoon. I look forward to tracking this stuff down later this evening. I'll let you know how it turns out.

    Patrick
     
  22. wpdent

    wpdent Rookie

    Feb 13, 2004
    28
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Patrick
    I have turned this car over numerous times now during the troubleshooting of this problem it would have definately started by now if that was the case. Mine fires right up normally. Thanks though for the info.

    patrick
     
  23. wpdent

    wpdent Rookie

    Feb 13, 2004
    28
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Patrick
    Steve:

    I really appreciate your time. It is the tachometric relay you mentioned. I ran all the tests you recommended. Then I bench tested the relay, it failed. I jumpered the connection, the car started on the first attempt. I will get one tomorrow then I am back in business!


    Thanks again for the great support.

    Patrick
     
  24. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    21,620
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Patrick -- You're most welcome (and well done on your end!), but are you absolutely sure it was running on both banks when you jumpered the tachometric relay? If the LH coil is dead, and you jumper terminal 30 to terminal 87 on the tachometric relay, I believe it would run on the RH bank only.

    Just for a little extra confirmation, when you have the problem does it:

    A. just crank and crank and never fire at all? (= tachometric relay probably is bad)

    or

    B. cranks and seems to fire initially, but dies as soon as you release the key to the run position (= more likely no "impulse" signal from LH coil)?

    PS Don't pay more than importec's $57.72 price for the tachometric relay if it is per A!

    PPS I guess that means you really weren't failing test #1?
     
  25. wpdent

    wpdent Rookie

    Feb 13, 2004
    28
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Patrick
    Hey Steve:

    Thanks again for the help. I just placed the order with Importec. Relay will be here on Friday. I plan to install the relay then run the tests again just to be sure everything is powered like it should be. I am certain it is running on both banks. I am still confused why I was not getting 12v on the red wire at the thermostat. I am sure I have the right component and wires for the test. We will see! Who knows, I may have fixed something else that just needed reseating or cleaning.

    If you have time for a question... In the triangular box in the right rear fender area, there are several relays. 2 113's , a 101, and 2 others. One of the relays has a fuse on it, the one just to the right of it (when viewed with the wiring harnesses exiting the top) does not. That relay (the one to the right), is making a buzzing noise while the engine is running with the tachometric jumper installed. I am unsure if this relay should be making all that noise or not. I wasn't going to bolt the box back down until I checked it with you. Importec does not reference the numbers on the relay either...!! I'll let you know how it works when UPS gets here!

    Thanks again,

    Patrick
     
  26. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    21,620
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    ..."I may have fixed something else that just needed reseating or cleaning." -- Amen to that Brother!

    Can't say I like the idea of a mechanically "buzzing" relay, but I don't have my TR stuff with me here -- I'll have a look tonight at my notes/WD and comment/post then if you can please wait. My recollection is that the B (another special relay with an input signal from the coil that disables the air pump when "cold" and over 4500 RPM) and C (the main power with the fuse) relays are the special ones; whereas, the A, D, and E relays are the typical little metal Bosch cubes -- but I know the A relay should be the ...006 kind so I'm a little surprised that's not in your list (i.e., my '91 US TR has 1 each ...113, 1 each ...101, and 1 each ...006).

    If you've got the correct year/version OM for your TR check the wiring diagram in the "Air Injection and Catalytic Converters" section (probably about page 74).
     
  27. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    21,620
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Patrick -- I went ahead and downloaded the 1985/86 US version TR OM (348/85) myself, and you indeed have an incorrect relay that you need to replace.

    On page 73 in Fig 54, the relay labeled "N" (which is the "A" relay on the wiring diagram) should be 0 332 015 006 (not a ...113). If you need more help identifying its position - it should be the only one of the three metal box type relays with a female spade on all 5 terminals, and is the one that is physically closest to the engine (i.e., most inboard) when the black box is mounted in its proper position/orientation.

    Don't know for sure that that will cause the "B" realy to "buzz", but it's way bad and needs to be fixed regardless.
     

Share This Page