86-328 no crank, ignition switch, solenoid, or brushes? | FerrariChat

86-328 no crank, ignition switch, solenoid, or brushes?

Discussion in '308/328' started by ndnguyen, Oct 31, 2013.

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  1. ndnguyen

    ndnguyen Karting

    Jul 27, 2005
    166
    Hello,
    My 86-328 has been experiencing intermittent (hot or cold engine does not matter) no start which has just become permanent. The car's engine won't turn over, no cranking sound. The car has a fully charged battery, positive and negative terminals have been cleaned and retighten. The headlights do not dim when the ignition switch is engaged. Below is a youtube video (essentially the sound) of the starting sequence I think it's the starter's brushes, since I think the clicking sound that I hear is the starter solenoid working, but I am not sure. Before I pull the starter, could you please let me know from the sound in the video, if the problem likely is the ignition switch, starter's solenoid, the starter itself, or somewhere in between?

    F328NoStart 001 - YouTube

    Many thanks,

    Nguyen
     
  2. greg 19425

    greg 19425 Formula 3

    Jan 6, 2011
    2,471
    Wake Forest, NC
    Full Name:
    Greg
    From the sound, I would guess the solenoid. You’re getting juice so switch is out..........With a good battery, the lights will still dim slightly when the solenoid kicks in. Good luck getting it back running. :)
     
  3. Steve King

    Steve King F1 Rookie

    Feb 15, 2001
    4,367
    NY
    Sounds like the starter solenoid is bad. I would pull the rear wheel (starter side) and then the fender liner . Hook up a push button start jumper and see if it spins the motor. If it does then you have a bad solenoid and you need to replace it. If it still doesn't turn then you need to replace the starter.
     
  4. Tim Wells

    Tim Wells Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2009
    393
    Dallas, GA
    Full Name:
    Tim Wells
    I thought I heard the solenoid fire but it sounds to me like the bendix may be just spinning in the retracted position and not engaging the flywheel. That starter can be rebuilt at any auto electric shop, just don't tell them what it came off of if you can help it. If you lived around here I'd come over and troubleshoot it for you.
     
  5. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

    Feb 7, 2011
    2,775
    London
    The problem is excessive voltage drop on the path from the battery to solenoid which is dropping the voltage too much for the solenoid to kick hard enough.
    Prime suspect would be corroded pins on the engine bay harness connector which is located near the LH top shock mounting.
    Less likely: burned contacts on the fuseboard connectors.
    Other possibility: Ignition switch
    Least likely: Starter/solenoid.
     
  6. Iain

    Iain F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2005
    3,323
    UK
    Underneath the car, just in front of the engine behind a fibreglass cover is a quick disconnect, similar to the one at the front of the car. Get under there & check it & clean it. Also make sure the wires there are not worn or chaffed in any way & if they are then sort them out. This is the main power feed to the starter.
     
  7. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

    Nov 19, 2008
    2,248
    Full Name:
    David Lind
    Which side is this on? Is it necessary to remove right or left wheel to access this?
    Don't suppose you have a photo or diagram, please?
    Many thanks!
     
  8. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

    Feb 7, 2011
    2,775
    London
    #8 andyww, Nov 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The connector Iain mentioned is definitely worth checking although this would affect charging as well since it connects the alternator and starter motor (not the solenoid though) to the battery.

    Its under the long cover in the centre of this picture which was taken from the left hand side of the car.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  9. ndnguyen

    ndnguyen Karting

    Jul 27, 2005
    166
    Hi guys,

    Many thanks for all the help and offer to help so far. To remove the starter, do I disconnect the positive power cable at the starter or from somewhere (up top?) else? If at the starter, does this cable have enough length to allow unbolting the starter first? Thanks again.
     
  10. tepps

    tepps Karting

    Oct 15, 2010
    103
    Buffalo NY
    Full Name:
    Tom Tepas
    Like iain said Check and remove quick disconnect positive feed to rear of car, that way you wont short out cable to starter after you remove it. I purchased a high torque, high speed starter that is also lighter as a replacement for the bosch old school one. I believe my problem was actually some cheap mickey mouse aftermarket alarm system I removed and problem went away.
     
  11. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

    Feb 7, 2011
    2,775
    London
    The problem is very unlikely to need removal of the starter to cure. Its 95% going to be one or more of the connections mentioned earlier. As Tepps said above another suspect would be an alarm.
    On the 328 the current path from the battery to the solenoid is so long and has so many connectors that there is only just enough voltage left by the time it gets to the solenoid if everything is perfect. One dodgy connector and it will go intermittent. It also has to go through the crappy printed circuit fuse board.

    When I had this problem I measured the solenoid voltage when energised and it was only 6 volts. After I went through all the connectors and cleaned them it reached the dizzy heights of 9 volts. But at least it now starts every time. The voltage at the battery was 12 so 3 volts goes missing in the wiring when the load of the solenoid is present.

    I think a lot of 328 owners replace the starter unnecessarily but true to say a more modern starter will draw less current on the solenoid and the motor so any contact problems will cause less voltage drop.
     
  12. ndnguyen

    ndnguyen Karting

    Jul 27, 2005
    166
    #12 ndnguyen, Nov 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well,

    In the video, the sound after the seat-belt warning buzz was the fuel pump sound, at the same time there was a clunking sound which I think came from the solenoid. I verified there was 10 volts at the white wire (see pics) connected to the starter. Inside the "red" connector (main 12volts) was clean. Ground connections (1 inch wide large braided wire) from the chasis to the engine (which connected to the starter's case) looked fine. So after all this verification, it got to be the starter so I removed it. I tested the starter using a battery charger and it work 10 out 10 times. I could be unlucky that may be the starter's brushes was in bad spot when it was bolted to the transaxle.

    Incidentally, does anyone happen to know what is the yellow/green wire (joined together via semi-transparent joiner) is for? Also there was a brown wire connected to the starter's 12 volts post, what uses this power connection?

    Thanks again,

    Nguyen
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  13. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

    Feb 7, 2011
    2,775
    London
    So have you checked the connector I mentioned in post #5?

    There was no need to remove the starter.
     
  14. Iain

    Iain F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2005
    3,323
    UK
    Now its out you may as well get it rebuilt anyway - won't cost much in parts to have it refreshed - just take it to any competent Bosch starter/alternator place.
     
  15. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,828
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Wire from alternator diode array to one side of the alt warning light in the dash.

    It's "P" color (beige) per the US 328 schematic -- +12V source to run the "Lambda" part of the US version 328 CIS injection system.
     
  16. ndnguyen

    ndnguyen Karting

    Jul 27, 2005
    166
    Hello, the voltage from the white wire measured at the starter was 10 volts. This is the same wire coming from connector 169 (thanks Steve) near the rear Koni driver side. Incidentally, battery voltage (at battery) was 12.55 volts. Is it unusual to see more than 2.5 volts lost somewhere?

    Anyway, I got the starter to misbehaved once on the bench, i.e solenoid fired but motor did not spin. Since it's Sunday and I was too impatient to wait for starter repair, I took it a part, clean the commutators, and very lightly sanded the brushes. After retested it on the bench too many times to count, I installed it in the car and she fired right up. It had been a while since I last was a grease monkey, I got aching back and shoulder this morning, found out I am way out of shape and flexibility, even for a small job like this. There's must be a shade tree mechanic god, every time I work on car, I needed to sacrifice a bit of blood and skin, followed by recitation (with appropriate emotion of course) of 4 letter word mantras. Now back to my real trouble which is to trouble shoot an intermittent misfired or power loss.

    Thanks everyone,

    Nguyen
     
  17. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

    Nov 19, 2008
    2,248
    Full Name:
    David Lind
    Did it prove to the double jointed octopus job it has been made out to be? I saw the starter in my Mondial and it looked like a bear to get out.
     
  18. ndnguyen

    ndnguyen Karting

    Jul 27, 2005
    166
    Yes, and you'll need eyes at your fingers, kind of hard to describe, there wasn't enough room to look at the nuts/bolts while turning them. But from reading the 308 starter r/r thread, I think the 328's starter is easier to r/r.
     
  19. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

    Feb 7, 2011
    2,775
    London
    The starter on Euro 328s is very awkward because it has a heat shield which is held by 2 exhaust manifold nuts and is a pig to remove.
     

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