87 328--need advice on hard start issue-redux! | Page 4 | FerrariChat

87 328--need advice on hard start issue-redux!

Discussion in '308/328' started by greg328, May 10, 2013.

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  1. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #76 greg328, May 25, 2013
    I want to understand more about the cold start injector on my car. It's sole purpose is to inject extra fuel into the intake when car is cold, right? This is to help start it, when there would be little residual fuel left from earlier runnings? If this system is inoperable It would make starting the car more difficult?

    If its malfunctioning, how is it repaired? What exactly would cause it to malfunction?

    When removed am I looking for it to only squirt fuel when cold-cranking? It should stop when key is released?

    Sorry for the 1000 questions, just trying to equip myself better with knowledge before jumping in. Thanks for any info.

    Greg
     
  2. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

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    #77 andyww, May 25, 2013
    Yes it would only squirt when cranking and when cold. Its controlled by the thermo-time switch.

    Not working would make cold start more difficult but not impossible.
     
  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #78 Steve Magnusson, May 25, 2013
    No, it should squirt for only the first second, or two, of cold starter motor cranking, and usually only on the first cold start attempt (or maybe the second attempt too, if the first attempt is brief and you wait a bit) -- i.e., it squirts fuel when the key is in Pos III and the thermo-time switch is closed. The thermo-time switch has an internal heater that gets activated by cranking which causes it to open -- have you read chapter D of the Mondial 8/QV WSM 281/83?
     
  4. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #79 greg328, May 25, 2013
    Thank you again. Steve, I'll seek out that chapter. I know I have a service manual PDF somewhere on my Mac. Not sure if it's a 328 or 308 carb, but I'll have a look. More to come!

    What is that link I see from time to time with all the Ferrari docs in one place?

    Greg
     
  5. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #80 greg328, May 25, 2013
    After all I've observed and studied regarding my cold-start issue, Im willing to bet my problem is indeed the cold-start injector system. just makes sense. a local mechanic familiar with Ferraris said this is a common problem on these cars.

    I'll finally have time next week again to devote to the car; I've had an all-week out of town recording studio client..

    Greg
    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #81 Steve Magnusson, May 25, 2013
    All Ferraris
     
  7. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #82 greg328, May 25, 2013
    Thanx much!


    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
     
  8. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #83 greg328, May 26, 2013
    Steve, I've downloaded the manual mentioned, and read chapter D. Thanks for the lead on that. Very interesting info in there. Funny, the 328 manual does not contain a chapter on ignition and injection; that PDF is mainly dealing with mechanical issues.

    Tomorrow I'm going to pull the cold-start injector, put it in a large jar and see if it squirts a bit when cold-cranking. I only need to turn the key to Pos. II, right? With the blue safety connector unplugged but the cold-start blue connector plugged in as normal, right?

    Greg
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #84 Steve Magnusson, May 26, 2013
    No -- Pos III (starter motor cranking)
     
  10. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #85 greg328, May 26, 2013
    Ok. Steve is it true that in warm weather like we have here in Texas the CSV might not even activate on a cold start? I'll find the temp specs on it but I thought I read somewhere that it needs to be ambient cold for it to activate. ???

    Greg
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #86 Steve Magnusson, May 26, 2013
    Yes, it might not activate this time of year. My thermo-time switch doesn't close unless it gets down to ~76 deg F -- and, since it is buried inside the engine, unless the garage ambient gets down below ~70 deg overnight, the CSI does not fire on the initial cold start (the engine cranks a little more in this state, but still fires within 3~5 seconds).
     
  12. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #87 greg328, May 26, 2013
    Hmmm.... Good to know. This may remove the CSV from the equation then. I need to know my fuel pressures. I've ordered a CIS pressure test gauge kit, so I'll report my findings ASAP.

    Thanks Steve I always appreciate your assistance.

    Greg
     
  13. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #88 greg328, Jun 7, 2013
    OK, I've tested my 328 for all 3 pertinent fuel pressures: cold control, warm control and system pressure. Took me a while to figure out how to hook up my MASTER CIS Pressure Kit fittings ( I used fittings 19 and 20, btw). Here are my findings:

    Cold control pressure: 35psi. Fuel pump running, engine not running, test hose valve open.

    Warm control pressure: 65psi. This is with engine running, test hose valve open.

    System pressure: 74psi. This is with engine running, but with the test hose valve closed.

    Residual pressure after shutting down: 63psi, reducing to 52psi in about 20 minutes.

    The ambient temp in my garage during all this was about 85-87ºF, so, converting everything to metric like the 328 Tech sheet page 21-22 shows, I'm right in spec. Nothing abnormal here with my fuel pressures, unless somebody tells me otherwise.

    I can confirm that cold start again today was difficult. It took some throttle pumping to get her going, but she would. I can also confirm something I was not sure about before: warm start seems OK. After sitting for 10 minutes, she started right up on the first crank, no pedal needed.

    So, maybe I'm back to spark. I need to replace my two flywheel sensors. I have them sitting on my desk, I just dread the TDC one--tough access.

    Any ideas guys?

    Greg
    87 328 GTB
     
  14. lonnie77

    lonnie77 Karting

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    #89 lonnie77, Jun 9, 2013
    I know I suggested looking at the two sensors but I don't think replacing them will solve the problem. My car is a little difficult to start for the first time of the day but it runs great after it starts. It seems as if the fuel is draining out of the fuel line but I have tested and replace everything that would cause that to happen. My next place to look is the oxygen sensor which is new the temp probe and LH ECU when I get a chance.
    If the TDC and RPM sensors have never been replaced than it's not a bad idea to do that. If you have to drill new holes in the mounting bracket measure the length of the old sensor bracket and make sure the new one is the same. The sensor has to fit into a recessed indention and if the bracket is to long it may not seat all the way down. A deep 8 mm 1/4" drive socket makes it easier with a short extension. Place a small piece of electrical tape on the inside of the socket and fold over the end and stick it to the outside. This will help hold the nut once it is off so you don't drop it. When installing the nut stuff paper into the socket to keep the nut at the end. I hope your good with your left hand, close your eyes and use the force.
     
  15. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #90 greg328, Jun 9, 2013
    Thanks Lonnie. I went ahead and bought the 2 FW sensors from Superformance UK as part of a larger order. They are priced well there, so I figured why not?

    I need to explore again the procedure to replace the TDC sensor. Was it you or somebody else in this thread who mentioned several items needing removal to access this sensor?

    You are probably right in that it probably won't matter. Remember, once my car starts, it runs perfect. It's just a hard cold start issue. Malfunctioning/random spark issues would not allow this. My problem HAS to to be related to some cold-start fuel component, but not the CSV. That is not in play at these warm temps in Houston currently.

    I'm going to run the fuel pressure tests again soon to verify. Busy week ahead so not sure when I'll get to it. I'm also going to look at the AAV valve and make sure it's open when cold.

    C'mon F-Chat braintrust! I need ideas! :)

    Greg
     
  16. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

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    #91 andyww, Jun 10, 2013
    Your ambient temp is so high that it seems not to be a cold start issue.

    When not using the car do you have any battery charger connected? If not, the issue might be a sensitivity to battery voltage caused by some electrical problem. When you re-start after 10 mins the battery would be in full charge but starting after a couple of days it would not be fully charged unless you have a charger on it during that time.

    Dont dismiss the sensors, the symptoms you have could easily be a low-output sensor which outputs enough signal during running RPM and high battery voltage but not cranking. You wont find out unless you change them. When removing check for any metallic dust etc stuck to the magnet, that would make it a prime suspect but could also be a shorted turn in the coil which is not visible.

    Theres probably no need to re-check the control pressure but note that you dont need to start the engine to check this, just unplug the safety switch so the fuel pump runs. The internal heating element in the WUR causes the pressure to rise over time as it should.
     
  17. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    #92 spirot, Jun 10, 2013
    I'm sure I'm late to the party but i had a similar issue in my 86 328 - and it was the fuel pump connectors under the dash and down in the pass foot well. the connector was burned out, and was only making partial / no contact. it was heat dependant / vibration dependant. spliced in new line with fuse.. works great.

    diagnosis, was in plug the connector on fuel pump, put key on and start giggling... when you here the buzzing ... voila the culprit. when in doubt & no start - go electrics...
     
  18. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #93 greg328, Jun 10, 2013
    Spirot,
    I appreciate your input. 100% certain my fuel pump and connections are not the case here. It always runs. The pump is brand new actually, as is the accumulator and filter. The dash connections are fine and normal, no hot spots.

    Greg
     
  19. JohnnyTS

    JohnnyTS Formula Junior

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    #94 JohnnyTS, Jun 11, 2013
    +1 should not be that since you probably check that first with other good threads addressing those connectors.

    Greg, Just a question, is your cold start valve disconnected ? I'm just thinking when your 328 starts hard in the morning (cold start ) do you push the accelerator down completely to get it started or do you just touch it slightly, you mentioned the car starts easy when warm.

    I know the CSV sometimes injects to much fuel when cold if its old or faulty (causing it to flood ) Had this problem on a 1986 - 328, I've simply disconnected the CSV and the car was fine...

    I hope you find the problem, would like to know what causing this.

    all the best
    John
     
  20. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #95 greg328, Jun 11, 2013
    John, I'll certainly try that again. The symptoms do seem to indicate flooding so maybe the cold start injector is adding fuel when it shouldn't.

    Fairly sure I'm pushing the gas pedal to the floor to coax the engine into starting. If I kill the engine, wait a minute, then crank again, it usually starts right up.

    ??

    Thanks,
    Greg
     
  21. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

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    #96 andyww, Jun 11, 2013
    I thought you had already tried with the cold start injector connector unplugged as Steve suggested this some time ago.
     
  22. lonnie77

    lonnie77 Karting

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    #97 lonnie77, Jun 11, 2013
    This has worked for me twice so I thought I would share it and see if it works for you.
    I just bump the starter and leave the key in the on position. As soon as the start hits let go of the key and let it sit for three or four seconds, turn the key off and then try to start the engine. Mine starts in an instant were normally it barely runs for a few seconds.

    When changing the TDC sensor you need to remove the distributor cap and push it out of the way. Removing anything else is up to you but it being your first time I would suggest removing that pricey rotor.
     
  23. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #98 greg328, Jun 11, 2013
    Andy, i did remove the csi before as Steve suggested; i indicated i would try again. can't hurt.

    Lonnie, i think Im gonna tackle that forward dizzy tomorrow. i already replaced the rpm sensor (it was greasy but no metal bits) so i need to do the tdc one as well. any special advice or tips you can offer to help with that removal? it seems fairly straightforward. any need to remove all the leads from it?

    I'll try your bump start technique as well, thanks!

    Thanx,
    Greg

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
     
  24. JohnnyTS

    JohnnyTS Formula Junior

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    #99 JohnnyTS, Jun 12, 2013
    Greg, when you get your 328 to start when cold, does she idle a little higher or does she idle the same or a little less ?

    I'm asking this because if the air valve (below expansion tank ) does not open when cold - other words stays closed the car will also struggle more to start when cold than when warm. (when warm the valve is anyway suppose to be closed and will start normal)

    ?
     
  25. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #100 greg328, Jun 12, 2013
    Johnny,
    Good question. The car does cold idle a bit higher, maybe 1100rpm. I think it settles to about 900rpm when warm. I do need to check that AAV valve, just haven't had time. I will soon!

    If the AAV truly does affect cold-start, which it obviously does, affecting mixture, this could very well be pertinent to my situation.

    Greg
     
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