Hi all. I'm the current owner of Russ Turner's black 3.2 Mondial. It's a very fun car, but I have this recurring no-start issue any time the car gets caught in the rain. The first time it happened, the car wouldn't start for a couple days. It would crank but not fire. When it finally did start, it ran like a lemon colored dog. I cleaned up some corrosion in the distributor cap and added a drying agent to the gasoline tank. That seemed to solve the issue. About a month and a half ago, I took my son to a park one afternoon. There was an unexpected downpour. We ran to the car, and got in, and it wouldn't start. No starter engage whatsoever, not even a solenoid click. All other functions worked perfectly fine--lights, relays, ABS, etc. I had the car towed to my garage. At first we suspected battery, but voltage was at 12.6vdc, which would indicate the cells were charged. A conversation with Russ and a call to Norwood placed the blame squarely on the cable from the battery to the starter. This car has none of the typical relays that other Mondials with Bosch injection have, as it's a carbureted setup. I have been unable to tinker with the car at all until this weekend. Here's the thing--how the heck do you check the connections at the starter in these cars without dropping the entire engine assembly? I put the car on jack stands, pulled the wheel and fender liner...I can see the starter but I don't see how anyone could pull the thing out unless they have four elbows and hands the size of a child. I added a couple of photos for reference--any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'm assuming the red wire is the wire to the starter? There is a black cable assembly with a square orange plug that runs along the lower portion of the bay. Electrical is all new, but I also found some discolored pins on the harness plug as well as some corrosion at the crimp of on one the exposed connector pin shown in the photo. You can also see that two of start process relays on the fuseboard have been eliminated and jumpered with a red wire. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Looks like I'm not alone in my questions about how to remove the starter. I found this thread: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=218567&highlight=Starter+replacement
Jeez don't everyone jump on this thread at once... The connector cable from the battery is wrapped in black electrical tape. I took the tape off and discovered the orange plastic connector housing is broken into several pieces...thus the tape, I guess? I can only imagine where to source one of these and how much it'll cost. Connector spades don't look corroded in any way. Voltage at the connector is 12.37 vdc using the engine block as a ground reference. I measured about 12.4vdc at the battery today, down from 12.6vdc a few days earlier. Not fully charged, but still about 75%, and that's very little voltage drop considering the length of the wire. So perhaps I've got a bad starter...it's the Nissan high torque type. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
This won't be any help with your issue, but I remember a thread - MANY, many years ago (before I bought my car) - where someone mentioned that it was as if Ferrari started the assembly process in Modena with 1 guy holding a starter in the air. Then, they assemble the entire car around it. Then, the 1st guy lets go of the starter. I can't even imagine..!
First response. That connector can be sourced outside of Ferrari. There is a replacement for cheap. YOu have to do a search or look at the 308/328 cross reference. If there is any way for you to short the solenoid to jump start the starter, at least that will eliminate the starter as a problem. Make sure the car is in neutral and well supported on stands.
Diz, It's been my experience that each of these "no-start" / "no-crank" problems are fairly individual in nature. Here's my adventure. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284369 Regarding access to the starter's electrical connections... I went through the bottom and right wheel well. BTW, I have an aftermarket starter as well (a Nippo from FerrariStarters.com).
Thanks everyone. Wade, I'm starting to suspect my starter's solenoid as well. Electrical in the car is new, and for the most part all wiring is in good condition. There's some corrosion and browning on the harness on the two points shown in the photo, so I'll be addressing those issues. Now it's on to getting the starter out of the car. I loosened all the mounting bolts but I have to remove the heat shield...I have a crippling fear of crawling under a car that's on jack stands. Is it held on by one bolt or two?
Two mount bolts for the starter... I hear you on the fear issue; I always use at least 4 jack stands when I'm under the car. BTW, the Nippo starter is pretty standard off-the-shelf so parts match-up should be easy.
I somehow pulled three bolts to get the starter loose, but my comment was in reference to the heat shield. One bolt for the heat shield or two?
Yeah, sorry... I meant 3. Here's another thread that might provide some insight on the starter: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=214235 Hmm, guess I'm missing something since I don't have a heatshield. http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=2590 Based on this maybe 4? Image Unavailable, Please Login
when these were new, a common;"oh Christ, what have I done..." was after blasting oil slather off the engine with some Berrymans carb cleaner...only to watch in horror as this big red plastic connector with a spade slip commection just dissolved and crumbled away to dust in a matter of only a few minutes... In the beginning, they told us a NEW ENGINE hatness was the only fit... balderdash-an invite tio find the 50.00 fix was on! the article in question was referrred to by the parts manager a "TERMINAL G-7" it is a really COMMON failure in Moon dials...dont stress, last one i bought was kess than 40.00..its been a whaile, but my seniliel memory suggests this as the P/N FWIW...
A little late to the party, but the red plastic connector is an Anderson Powerpole 120 series. These are common connectors, and in my experience are very reliable except when they're next to Ferrari exhaust headers. A broken plastic shell can be broken off or otherwise removed and a new plastic shell can be slipped on without having to re-terminate the wire. Anderson has a good guide to using these. The connectors are genderless. Here's a thread where Mike (soucorp) did his, complete with his usual superb illustrations further down (skip the clutch slave discussion): http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=361432 Here's another thread on it: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=219070
Great info on the connectors guys! Looks like they're available from one of my work vendors Mouser Electronics. http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=Anderson+PowerPole+PP120 $6.36. Not sure if that's the cheapest source or not but it's pretty darn cheap, about half what Power Werx was charging. Ground shipping cost me another $3 (I have my own UPS account with insanely low rates). Now I just need to figure out how to get this heat shield off and pull the starter out. I need to grow a few more elbows and shrivel my hands down to the size of a 3 year old...time to visit the witch doctor .
I wonder if that heat shield contributes to heat-soak and if it's best to leave it off... once to get it off, that is I know of another mid-engined car that has a temperature controlled cooling fan for the engine bay and uses ducting to direct airflow towards the alternator and starter; no heat shields either (as I recall).
Dizi, I have not played around with a Mondial but spent a few years wrestling a 308 into submission. I rebuilt my starter when it was off the car, covered it in hear wrap, put the engine back in and bolted it all back up (including my whiz bang dry sump conversion) only to have the starter fail a couple of weeks later. I can personally vouch tht you can pull it off the car from underneath / through the wheel well as it sounds like you are discovering! To state the obvious, something in your starting system doesn't like water. Sounds like wiring, a ground, the solenoid, or worst case, the starter motor and I'd check them in that order. The battery to starter connection needs to be a good one as does the motor ground strap. For the former, I recall buying the correct gauge wire and crimping new ends on it. As I look at your pictures, the wiring looks, well, less than perfect. Philip
for what it's worth I had a similar problem in my 328... it was two wires, one down in the foot board on pass side, and other a connector up behind the fuse relay plate... with your bown connector board, I think that may be a culprit right there.
Perhaps you could recreate the conditions with a garden hose at home and then test to see where current is and is not. Mike
Wiring is recent, I'd say around 5-6 years old. There are quite a few stickied threads about the car in the 308/328 section of the forum. The two connections on the harness raise my eyebrow but I've seen older photos of it before the wiring was re-done, and it looks even worse. My guess is on the starter solenoid first, as it exhibited a strange behavior last time this happened. I haven't had time to mess with it all week--business sale, too many employees taking time off this week, etc etc. Here's a video of the car trying to start last time I got caught in the rain. Notice the heavy clunk from the starter that sounds like something is shorting out. You can also hear my three year old saying "stop it!": [ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j_n-Yjknais[/ame] I see you're in Chicago too. Are you in the city? I'm in Uptown right on the edge of Ravenswood and Andersonville.
I'm also late to the party and don't have a 3.2 or a Mondial, but I did have issues with my 308 and the ground cable. Not sure where it's at on your car but mine was completely coated in oil and grease from years of use. I took it off and cleaned it well. Put it back on and the problem was solved. Of course then later down the road my starter or selenoid went too and I'm still working on getting them out. Just for misery loves company, the 308 is no easier.
Speaking of late to the party...I had the starter go out in my 328 a few years ago and the (easy) way I verified it was the starter was to do a push start. Since everything worked that way and it started right up, I figured it was the starter. I ended up buying one of those replacement starters from the guy on ebay and it is a much better and compact design. Note tho, that at the time, he had multiple auction listings, some with free shipping, some without. Other currencies, etc., so I save a few bucks by cherry picking through his listings. However, replacing it was probably the hardest wrench job I've ever done, as I didn't have the 'magic Ferrari tool' to make it easy, and as you've noticed, cramped doesn't begin to describe access. And, one of the connectors had to be modified as it was too small, as I recall. Easy to change, though. I -did- manage to get it all in and working without tearing the car apart(didn't take any heat shield off, just went in through the wheel well), but with just a typical set of wrenches, it's one hell of a job... Starter works great though and is mucho better than the original.
I thought about this but quickly ruled it out since I don't have any friends and no way to do a push start by myself. After wrestling with the heat shield this afternoon and getting nowhere I think I'd like to invite the Mondial/3x8 engineering team over to my house for a few kicks in the huevos.
Check the battery kill switch. It certainly is very exposed in a downpour. FWIW, I have a brand new starter in a box if it comes to that.
Check plug extenders. Water gets into the recess behind a cracked boot, then when the HV comes in it burns a pinhole on the side of the extender and the spark grounds to the block. Symptoms - no start or light-severe missing.
