'99 F1 clutch replacement

i would also like to replace the clutch on a 355 F1

is there any way to re-set the adaption values without an sd2

thanks
Jess

 

is there someone with an sd2 in the los angeles area that would reset the values

 

someone?

 

have you received a quote for the clutch replacement

what do you think would be a reasonable price to pay

 

I, too thought about doing the clutch myself, but in the end I wised up and let a dealer do the job. It was a real challenge for a number of reasons, even for the dealership.

Getting to the clutch is fairly easy. Drop the airboxes, rear bumper, and muffler and your there. This much we already know from the other great threads about clutch replacement.

But here's where it gets sticky: The throw-out bearing assembly and seals have been superseded with 360 parts. You also need a special service tool to remove the unique bolts that hold the throw-out bearing in place. In my particular case, the tech assembled everything together with new parts along with a refinished flywheel (itself a rather expensive part if this cannot be machined) but the car would not release the clutch after successfully shifting.

After rechecking his work, getting the flywheel remachined, a new disc, etc. it was reassembled with the same result. It turned out that the existing support flange (the part the throw-out bearing rides on) did not have the same exact tolerances of the new 360 throw-out bearing and seals. This would cause the throw-out bearing assembly to get stuck on the support flange, not allowing the clutch to engage.
Quite a mess. To solve the problem a new support flange had to be installed from a 360 (another superseded part) to work with the throw-out bearing. The support flange runs over $1100.

I can only imagine how painful it would have been if I would have attempted this install myself. Add to it that the SD2 allows one to bleed the clutch assembly much easier, and allows for actuator recalibration, it's a no brainer to let an experienced shop handle the job.

Your experiences may vary, of course, but if you have not been quoted a new support flange in the clutch R&R price, be prepared. My entire job ended up at $3900 from a dealer. They did not charge me the extra labor to tear the car apart 3 extra times while they diagnosed what was wrong.

Best,
pino

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=135901604#post135901604

 

Thanks!

 

I "helped" a local Ferrari shop replace clutches on a 360 F1 and a 355 F1. I think it would be foolish to do this without a SD2 or equivalent,
even if you have all the new flanges, nuts and bolts.

The computer helps fill the oil, bleed the lines and the pump and set the point of initial slip, and a bunch of other things I can not remember right now. It was like a puzzle though, after you tell the computer what you wanted done, then you had to do something like a magic rain dance, for example turn the key to on, pump the brake 3 times, do a volcan hand signal and suddenly the car started making sounds. F1 clutch changes is one of the jobs that I would encourage you to leave to the professionals if you do not have a computer and do not know how to use it.

 

Those posts are full of incorrect information.

Bottom line is to do an F1 clutch you need the machine. And you need to know what to do with it.

Don't have it? Don't do it.

 

This is not difficult to replace it is just parts. I remember back in the 308 Ferrarilist days I was told you can't change your own timing belts. Then in the early Fchat days you can fix your own 348 transmission without special tools. I made the tools and have helped to fix about 6 of these boxes so far. Then in 2006ish people said you can't reprogram Bosch ECU's and No Doubt is doing it. Too back you F1 guys don't have the 348 brotherhood. If we owned an F1 you can bet we would tell Fchat members how to fix them. Sure the SD2 is an issue but just about anything can be reversed engineered. Your clutch install problems are not a problem of a difficult non-DIY job. This was a problem of the dealer not knowing what they were doing like this was the first one they ever did. Funny how they assumed the T/O bearing fit the flange. With Ferrari you always check all the parts you get. That 20+ years of working on Ferraris. In a worst case senario an owner can replace the clutch and have FNA do the reprogram if needed. For all you guys spending thousands I posit to you that you can stick to organic clutch surfaces and have your old surface rebuilt for less than 50 bucks. If you POS is off and you prematurely burn the disc who cares at 50 bucks. Hell that is cheaper than the time and agrivation it would cuse to get your car to FNA for a reprogram and them telling you all kinds of BS. So can you imagine a 50 dollar clutch change? Yup I have done it many times. Organic clutch faces don't wear the flywheels like kevlar etc. so stick to them and save yourself some money. Ususally when this is done you need nothing done to flywheels or just light dressing. A flywheel treated this way will last you several clutch plate changes. That goes for pressure plates too. Goodluck!

 

So who cares if it only costs you $50 and 15 or 20 hours of your precious time plus the near $1000 worth of throw out bearing parts all so your car can work like a real piece of *****? As bad as it is you are still driving a Ferrari right? Isn't that all that matters?

I don't know about all you guys but I would rather drive a Toyota that works right than a Ferrari that doesn't.

Did you buy it because it is a great car to drive or because you can find a way to short cut everything to save a buck and keep a piece of ***** running long enough to pose in?

 

Is it possible that you guys are both partly right? I've never had an F1 clutch apart (but I do have a customer with one). What about it is MAGIC beyond replacing the worn stuff with new stuff?

I have successfully had a Countach clutch rebuilt locally for $200. Everyone told me I needed to buy it new for 10 times that.

 

Ferraris are great cars to drive (they look pretty good, too), but it's FNA and Ferrari Spa that take the shortcuts to save a few bucks, rather than most DIY'ers.

For instance, the F355 exhaust headers from Ferrari are pure crap. Aftermarket parts are not only cheaper, but better. Ditto for most 355 valve guides, belt tensioners, and center console overlays...all of which are available in higher quality for less money via the aftermarket.

The old iron throwout bearing and the new aftermarket Hill Engineering throwout bearings are vastly better parts than what Ferrari was using in late model 348's and early 355's, too.

So while I understand your sentiment that you don't want a bunch of Ferraris running around (barely) that sound and perform poorly, I'd posit that you've got it backwards on which cars are going to in that group.

A good mechanic using pure Ferrari OEM parts is going to "fix" a 355 with OEM replacement exhaust headers that *will* fail in the next 25,000 miles...whereas the backyard mechanic who bolts on aftermarket exhaust headers is not going to see another exhaust header problem.

Well, it's not far-fetched to think that similar circumstances may hold true for other Ferrari parts such as clutches. FBB makes a good point by saying that the kevlar clutches are going to wear your flywheel.

Hey, that flywheel is a pretty expensive part to replace! Maybe organic clutches (which happen to be cheaper and which won't wear the flywheel nearly so fast) are worth a look-see.

For me, I don't see any anti-Ferrari blashphemy in choosing a better part to improve your car. Do I really want an early Testarossa differential or would I prefer to use something a bit more robust?

I bet that you, for instance, eschew Ferrari's OEM Champion spark plugs for NGK's. No crime in so doing, by the way...I use them myself.

With a bit of help in learning how to bleed F1 transmissions, I bet that more than a few backyard DIY'ers would go for organic clutch plate surfaces and wind up with longer-lasting flywheels...especially if RexRCR's tips on reading the 355 F1 factory workshop manual to learn how to set the P.I.S. without an SD2 tool were more widely known.

And frankly, this is why Ferraris come with tool kits in the trunk...because Tifosi have a distinguished heritage for loving our Ferraris so much that we take pride in doing some of the work ourselves on our cars.

I encourage it. What better way to get to know your car?!

 

The F1 systems have at least two, perhaps more, things that are easier to do properly with an SD2 tool (e.g. setting P.I.S. and bleeding the clutch fluid).

So it is fair to say that F1 maintenance is different than traditional clutches.

 

Quit your bullsh it obfuscation. Nothing was said by me of the need to use OE parts and you are very well aware of it. The topic was the proper repair of the car so proper performance was returned. His method will not achieve that.

 

Bleeding the system is possible without an SD unit.

Setting the PIS is likewise possible without it and is one of many steps that need to be carried out when a clutch is replaced. The balance of those steps is not possible without it.


You only serve to encourage people to get in over their heads and are not capable of fully informing them of what is required to do the job properly.

 

I'm definitely interested in a "work around" for this. It seems inevitable that sooner or later someone will show up with a 355 or 360 and want a clutch. The nearest dealer is 450 miles.

I won't touch it if I don't have a reasonable expectation that it will work when I'm done (I hate when that happens).

 

It will work. It will never work correctly. There is no work around.


To be in the repair business for modern cars requires a great deal of very expensive equipment. Specialization is required. We work on Ferrari and nothing else. We really only work on more modern Ferrari's and even that requires great outlays. To not do so is shortchanging the customers.

 

Guilty. I don't know what is required to service the F1, and I do encourage people to work on their cars.

Is there a list of F1 steps already on-line? If so I'll just link to that when replying to generic F1 questions.

Good to know that F1 clutches can be bled without an SD2 tool; ditto for setting the P.I.S.

If there is a specialty tool that is required for F1 service, by all means please post it.

 

SD1 ,2 OR 3.

When we owned $300 dollar cars we were using $500 or $1000 worth of tools to fix them.

Now we have $150,000 cars and you still want to fix them with $500 or $1000 worth of tools.

Ain't gonna happen.

 

Bad news for those of us in the "Third World".

 

Who says it works like *****? I can do my clutch in a couple 2-3 hrs drinkin a beer. It aint rocket science. I rebuilt my gearbox for about 15% of FNA prices with homemade tools when everyone said this was rocket science. Well my car don't run like ***** in fact it only sees the race track and in 5+ years of wheel to wheel racing gearbox is still perfect. Plugzit just saw the inside of my gearbox oil pan with no metal! Ask him. I'm still racing my own modification of Ferrari OEM clutch and that's over 5 years old too. So maybe before you think my car runs like a piece of ***** you should come drive it. In fact pick your OEM 355 and lets go road racing and see if it is faster than my 348. I'll even let you go up market on me. The point is not always to save a buck. Ferraris for some are a hobby. I don't wax and shine I fix. These things are just cars.

So does this 355F1 adjust the POS by itself as the clutch plate wears?

 

No Doubt,

RD is right "WHEN" you want to run a business. But we are not running businesses. Sure you can use and SD2 to bleed even our 348 brake/clutch systems but you can also run the ABS pump and valves with key in position 2. I do this every trackday for a perfect pedal. Sure you have have the special ferrari tools to hold bearings in when doing rebuilds but Erine used a rubber band and it worked perfectly. Sure you could buy the special nut remover to get the flywheel out but you can also weld up one from scrap parts. You could buy the zillion dollar tools to reverse engineer the ECU chips but what did you spend? Does your method work? You bet Plugzit is living proof. One day someone like you or me will fix the 355F1 clutch and the mysterys will be removed. Look back at old threads on 308 timing belts, 348 transmissions, rechipping ECU's, Each of these items like many others were stated to be impossible jobs for the diy'er. All have proven to be easy jobs. To all Diy'er if you screw up you are still going to be out parts. If I took my gearbox to FNA as a box of parts they would still charge me to rebuild it. So what have I lost? It is either going to run or it is not. If it runs but not well they you are partly right. Take some time and figure the rest out.

I tell you what. Anyone with a so california area 355F1 want a free clutch job? You get the parts We do the labor together free and post how to do it on Fchat. You know the risks, you know the rewards. I would not offer unless I though it could be done. You will need to have a workshop manual I got all the tools and a lift. We can even call in the troops for more consult Ernie/Plugzit/goth