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A 23 year old F1 car is still faster than a current IndyCar

Discussion in 'F1' started by jgonzalesm6, Nov 19, 2021.

  1. exoticcardreamer

    exoticcardreamer Formula 3

    Dec 9, 2014
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    doesitmatter

    Is the champ car lap time prior to 2008 - The configuration changed after 2008 at laguna seca.
     
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  3. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    I think you mean re-surfaced. My records show it was 1.9 miles through 1987; 2.214, '88-'95; and 2.238, '96 thru today. I can't imagine that if the config changed, it would remain the same length right down to the thousandth of a mile. ;)
     
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  4. SS454

    SS454 Rookie

    Oct 28, 2021
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    Chris S
    Different track layout, so the 1973 time can't really be compared to the 2000 official time.

    In 1973, yeah that 917/30 was faster than an F1 car. It wasn't until the 80s that F1 cars started to see big big power from their turbo cars.
     
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  5. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    Duly noted in post #23:
    "Mark (Donohue) Q'd on pole in '73 (48 years ago) with his 917/30 with a 57.374.....
    Now, the track is 3/10s mile longer (2.2 vs 1.9) after that, but they wouldn't have cost Mark another 10 secs,.....'won't even consider on today's rubber (they were hard as rocks 50 years ago)."
    Again in #27:
    "I think you mean re-surfaced. My records show it was 1.9 miles through 1987; 2.214, '88-'95; and 2.238, '96 thru today."

    Regarding your second sentence, I'll PM ("conversation") you. :)
     
  6. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    #30 Terra, Nov 21, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
    It's not a matter of 0.3 miles. The current configuration at Laguna Seca (with its infield section) has additional turns, thus making a a considerably slower average lap speed, etc.

    Now & Then (until 1987):
     

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  8. SimCity3

    SimCity3 Formula 3

    Sounds better too !
     
  9. tuttebenne

    tuttebenne F1 Rookie

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    Partially true. IndyCars are also designed to be cheap forms of open wheel racecars. The last time I ever watched an IndyCar race it was when they visited Montreal. At the end of the straight, a car ran straight off under (ill advised) braking and t-boned a car navigating the Senna Curve. They both drove off and finished the race with no damage to the front wings or bodywork! I don't want to see drivers hurt but F1 clearly illustrates you don't have to trade safety off for performance. IndyCars are more NASCAR than anything else.
     
  10. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran

    Apr 20, 2004
    5,855

    ..... as he picked up his hammer and saw.
     
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  11. Fcar tech

    Fcar tech Rookie

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    As I get older, and time passes, I realize I miss those days..
     
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  13. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    Your lucky I guess. It's just gettin' you.
    I was aware of the deterioration of the sport of auto racing from NASCAR's inception of BS yellows to improve the show (I'm, thinkin' late seventies...'can't have somebody deservedly running away with it, now can we...?). Everyone else has just been following suit.....even F1 for crissake.....one way or t'other..
     
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  14. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,940
    The fastest Daytona run was back in mid-late 1990s, before restrictor plates (for safety), before hans (for safety), before car of tomorrow (for safety while racing neck in neck) won by Bill Eliot in a caution FREE race ! Pole was in the 230 MPH range. They have not had a caution free Daytona since !

    So, why is it that all these (so called) safety devices lead to wrecks ??
    Because:: after a certain level of safety, drivers use the safety margin to push the edge farther and wreck more often as a result.

    Want caution free races:: get rid of most of the safety gear !!
     
  15. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    #37 lorenzobandini, Nov 25, 2021 at 8:59 PM
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021 at 9:18 PM
    Woa...... What planet are you from?
    There ain't been no stocker 'ever come close to 230 at Daytona.....not even down the back straight, let alone a lap.
    Try Elliott, 210, 1987. ;)
    The wrecks are the result of the plates, not "safety devices", forcing the "pack" racing. Prior thereto, they were spread out....(naturally....no "show"), less wrecks.
    Now, if you ain't in the "draft" (slipstream), you ain't in the race. Plus, you ain't got the power to make a good run at somebody on your own.....
    Waddaya know? With all the other BS gimmicks, a better show.....to 'ell with the actual sport of racing.....

    (I've posted elsewhere, the fastest lap I know at Daytona was Peter Gregg's record run at Mark's 917/30 record at 'Dega (221 mph). I was there, 'weekend of the IMSA Finale, 1977, iirc.. He trimmed out his 935 and broke it by a mile an hour, not enough to be official (needed to be 1% faster) at 222.
    John Greenwood's 'vette was rumoured to have hit 240 down the backstretch, but a verrrry reliable source advised it was actually 220 and change. Speaking of which...
    https://www.imsa.com/news/2021/03/12/all-american-1976-imsa-corvette-lands-at-motorsports-hall-of-fame-of-america/
    I believe it was geared taller to lower the rev's at 'Mans for durability, not allowing max revs/speed. it broke anyway as it usually did in the Camel GT series.
     
  16. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    Didn't Paul Tracy break 240mph in an Indy car in the late 90's? They really started pulling back on the speeds due to a few serious accidents. It was pretty big news that these car were getting to the point of being undrivable due a humans low recation times in comparison to the speeds they were attaining. They were getting insanely fast.

    I think even F1 at the time had to turn down the speeds..but they were/are nowhere near the speeds attained in Indy at anytime.
     
  17. SS454

    SS454 Rookie

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    Paul Tracy hit just under 257 mph at Michigan. Of course this was in a draft, but still. Crazy fast.

    I believe it was Texas where they canceled the Champ Car race because the drivers were getting vertigo due to the extreme g forces in the banked corners.
     
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  18. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    When, pray tell, was this?
    No recollection whatsoever. As in.....'didn't happen.
    Makin' sheet up on the go doesn't really fly. :p (Try just under 237....;) with tow. It was in practice, so unofficial.)

    Now, it was Mauricio (Gugelmin) that turned the quickest official lap (Fontana) by an Indy Car (CART) at juuuust under 241 in qualifying.....no tow. (He had done 242+ in practice.)
     
  19. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    Again. Meaningless. Apples and oranges.....the cars, annnnd. in this case, the tracks/circuits.
    F1 cars have never run on an oval....flat out all the way around. ;)
    (No, not even the '50s and '60, when the Indy 500 was part of the F1 drivers championship. The few drivers that came over and did it were in Indy cars, not F1 cars. That's why Indy car drivers were listed in the WDC results back then.)
     
  20. SS454

    SS454 Rookie

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    Not very nice to insinuate I am making it up.

    In 1996 he hit a top speed of 256.948 miles per hour (413.518 km/h) at Michigan.

    Also it was Gil De Ferran that holds the "official" closed course mph record of 241.428 mph around Fontana, California in 2000. That's average speed, not Vmax.
     
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  21. ChipG

    ChipG Formula 3

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    #43 ChipG, Nov 27, 2021 at 2:05 AM
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021 at 2:18 AM
    I thought eddie chiever did around 236 in a circle setting the official record, circle jerks for sure!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Cheever

    The 1996 Indy 500. The most prominent record fell on the 78th lap when Eddie Cheever raced around at 236.103 mph, the quickest in history.Aug 6, 2021
     
  22. ChipG

    ChipG Formula 3

    May 26, 2011
    1,367
    Santa Monica, CA
    can you please post links so we can adjust our data
     
  23. SS454

    SS454 Rookie

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    Cheever set the fastest Indy race lap record, average speed of 236.103. Arie Luyendyk set the qualifying lap record around Indy (which holds today) at 237.498 average speed. This was done in the same year, 1996
     
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  24. SS454

    SS454 Rookie

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  25. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    (A) 'Sorry, I wasn't serious, therefore the tongue smiley. I shoulda' used italics or quote marks around the "Makin' sheet up" also. I really thought you just transposed a 5 for the 3 by mistake.

    (B) I don't remember that.....I would have.....hearing/seeing a number like that. ('Could be wrong on that one. I started losing interest in Indy cars since the split.)
    And checking that link you provided (a post on a board, by a "New Member", with a whopping 4 posts), I still don't.
    Read the following post (#2) "The highest trap speeds in 2000 were 245ish mph" (the "ish" is my insert),"and even that was only with a hell of a tow". I agree.
    I don't take posts on bulletin boards as fact, unless I've known and trust the poster. Better yet, news "agencies". I just found.....
    ESPN trustworthy?.....http://www.espn.com/auto/cart/news/2000/0721/645115.html
    Motorsport.com???.... https://us.motorsport.com/indycar/news/champcar-cart-tracy-runs-fastest-lap-at-michigan/1823106/)
    I'm pretty sure they would have mentioned the "phenomenal 257".....again, 'could be wrong.

    (C) I don't remember that either.
    Another search.....how about ye olde Associated Press?.....https://apnews.com/article/d45bb058accb87838c6eaa468269b2eb but I can't say I have a recollection of

    Yes Google works well....it's just where it takes you that you need to be wary of. NOT everything on the internet is correct.
    Know thy sources. I told ya', I've been a passionate fan and participant.....I don't need to fantasize or exaggerate (like I think the two posters, #1 & #6, may have) on the thread you provided. Facts about racing are faaaaarrrr more important to me then that.
    Mistakes? Yes, that I have, can, and will, make.

    Again, I realllly didn't mean to accuse you of falsifying.....'thought it was an error. 'Not doubting your honesty, just the accuracy of your info. :)

    (btw, what's "Vmax"? "Velocitymax"? I never saw the "term" before.)
     
  26. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    Why are you getting so upset over this? It's a well known established fact Indy cars run at far higher speeds then F1 cars do. It's 2 different styles if racing. Indy does both oval and track/street courses.

    I follow a few veteran Indy drivers on Instagram and Paul Tracy has posted numerous speed clips of blistering fast lap times and speeds.
     
  27. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    What makes you think I'm upset? Au contraire. I'm online for pleasure myself..... (I do try to use appropriate "smilies", aka emoticons, to illustrate my mood. :)
    Are you? I can't tell....I don't see facial expressions or even hear tones either. ;)
     
  28. vandevanterSH

    vandevanterSH Formula Junior
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    "Because:: after a certain level of safety, drivers use the safety margin to push the edge farther and wreck more often as a result."
    ******
    FWIW..."Peltzman Effect" AKA "Risk Compensation"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation
     

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