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A dealer's opinion on Boxer prices...

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by parkerfe, Oct 4, 2007.

  1. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
    12,887
    Cumming, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Franklin E. Parker
    As I have posted before, I suffer from a hankering to trade my BB512i for a classic front engine V12 and have been considering cars such as 250GTE, 330 2+2 or 365GTC/4 . When I saw that Symbolic had a 250GTE, I e-mailed Bill Noon to inquire. Mr. Noon does not concur with our opinions on Boxers as "collector" Ferrari's. He believes there were just too many made to increase in any significant value. He commented on one Symbolic's owner had with only 165klms and apparently in almost perfect condition that he says he would be hard pressed to sell for $125k. While he was very nice and did not criticize Boxers at all, it does indicate what the market may really be on Boxers...at least at Symbolic...
     
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  3. deichenb

    deichenb Formula Junior

    Apr 3, 2007
    551
    Tampa Bay, FL
    Full Name:
    David
    5 years ago, he probably would have told you the same about the 2+2 cars he's trying to sell you, at least with regard to their collectible value despite their relatively lower production numbers. It's all perspective and opinion... to TR/BB/3x8 owners, a Modena is as un-collectible as our cars are to a "classic V-12" dealer. I wonder how he feels about missing the boat on those overproduced, underpowered, Fiat-engined 246's... I bet he'd love to sell you one for $175K tomorrow.
     
  4. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jan 26, 2005
    20,700
    Fullerton, California
    Full Name:
    Jon
    I'd agree - sounds a bit like Sheehan's implied philosophy: if it's not already expensive, it's not an investment car.

    Ultimately the 'collectible' segment is going to have to expand to cars with more than 100 known.
     
  5. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

    i spoke to symbolic two years ago about my boxer and its value today and going forward.

    the sales person i spoke to was just a sales person and may have thought himself an expert by virtue of the fact that symbolic does buy and sell lots of important cars...expertise by association i suspect!

    at any rate, he seemed interested in talking to me about buying a 360 or a gallardo citing the boxer as being produced in very high numbers and that he did not ever see them being worth north of $75 or 80K. I looked a bit shocked at his global assessment on the boxer and asked if he thought that being the last hand built scaglietti car would have any influence as to how the cars would be treated in the future...he said no. at that point we decided that this guy suffered from severe baffoonery and really had no clue.

    turned out that at least for the moment...he is looking wrong.

    and last, ask steve barney about the future of boxer prices...he calls it the next daytona!
     
  6. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

    oh and btw...that 80 mile car he speaks of would fetch well north of $150k if it is as good as he says. but...i doubt the car is as new looking as he describes. i would bet far from concourse!!!

    maybe he should give the car to steve barney to sell...he will get $200k for it!
     
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  8. scottmar

    scottmar Karting

    Sep 11, 2006
    113
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    Scottmar
    I wonder if the fellow at Symbolic feels the same way about Dino's. I thought that there were more Dino's produced than Boxers. Dealer's are likely to minimize the value of cars they might have the opportunity to purchase and of course the ones they have for sale will always be rare and valuable.
    Scott
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    20,295
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    +1

    Not to impune anyone in particular, but this is why the dealers don't really participate (or maybe are forced to not participate) here IMO -- they need something more "flexible" than the written word ;)
     
  10. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

    May 17, 2006
    12,722
    Dallas, Tx.
    Full Name:
    James K. Woods
    My car is a specialty. Your car is a commodity.

    Soon those horrible boxers will be as worthless as a Testarossa.
     
  11. Murph

    Murph Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 26, 2004
    1,539
    SoCal
    Full Name:
    Kevin
    So tired of the high numbers of Boxers produced whining.
    Boxer total 2315, jeez that's a huge number!
    Dinos total 3912, you should be able top pick one up for dirt if this theory holds any water.
    And just for fun: Total 1967 Shelby Mustangs 3225, you can still get these cheap, can't you:D
    It takes the guys who dreamed of these cars in high school to become "empty nesters" to get the Boxer market moving.
    We are just starting to see this happen.
     
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  13. PINNIN512

    PINNIN512 Formula 3

    Aug 30, 2002
    1,014
    California
    Full Name:
    David

    You tell em Murph!

    Yu the man.
     
  14. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jan 5, 2002
    20,259
    Portland, Oregon
    Full Name:
    Don
    Like any good salesman, Bill's opinion is one thing when he's buying and another when he's selling.
     
  15. johnvwatts

    johnvwatts Formula Junior

    Jul 7, 2007
    522
    England
    Full Name:
    John v watts
    Carb Boxers are rare - 387 365BB's and 929 512BB's. And only 1007 injection cars. The only thing holding values back v's Daytona's (1284 built) and Dino's (3913) is age. Boxers are great cars and powerful too. And there not 2+2's which are always the cheapest Ferrari's. I would be very suprised if Boxers do not increase to at least double there current value in the next 2 years. Certainly there is only one RHD Boxer for sale (for resoration) currently in the UK. People are holding on to them. There are currently at least 5 Daytonas for sale and about 8 Dinos.
     
  16. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 26, 2005
    1,501
    in a house
    Full Name:
    John
    Humph! So the darn things aren’t worth a hoot and never will be, huh?
    And I guess Mr. Noon is correct, as they’re so lowly there’s not even one at the top of the page next to the F-Chat banner. Every other model flashes up there, but not the lowly Boxer!
    Guess I’ll just sell mine and buy an investment grade 360!
    Dang, and I enjoyed my car too!
    Sadly,
    John
     
  17. LP400S

    LP400S Formula 3

    May 18, 2002
    1,221
    West Coast
    It is just a dealer tactic to try and beat you up on your car. Same guy was hitting me up in Monterey to buy my car last year.
     
  18. willrace

    willrace Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Oct 21, 2006
    22,290
    North Tay-has
    Full Name:
    Kurt
    No.......just a salesman.......earning and reinforcing the stereotype.
     
  19. AHudson

    AHudson F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 7, 2005
    2,689
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Adams Hudson
    Let's calm down on salesman bruising. They, like we, all earn a living. And to SOME DEGREE, we're all salespeople of something... even if we're in charity work. Digression over...

    I was a MAJOR LOOKER for Boxers about 4-5 years ago. Had my 'dreams' and 'goals' to include one. Then a $50-70k car. Correct me if I misquote, but in that range. Seemed a bargain. Handbuilt, handsome, mid engined 12, 'big brother' to the Dino, 'father' to the TestaRossa, and IN THE SCHEME OF THINGS, darned rare.

    Side point: Rarity for a 60's or 70's model in the 'way back' machine can't quite align with the numbers of newly-minted millonaires in the last 4 years. Unprecedented increase there, so the proportion of high-income earners vs. available cars is no longer as valid as what we USED to call 'rare'. And the post about muscle cars and their presumed "rarity" is spot-on. It's not how many were produced; it's how many qualified buyers want to put 'em in the garage.

    So, last year I woke up and saw 'my' $50-$70k car was an $80-$100k car. Oops, waited 6 months and $80 was $85. $100 was $115. I don't care WHAT the dealer says (see opening sentence) the market moved. I don't believe a soul on this board would significantly disagree with that, and perhaps we're under the ether. But in a way we kind of voice the market... because it's rare and desirable enough that we can.
     
  20. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

    that is actually a pretty funny post john!
     
  21. Dave Bendl

    Dave Bendl Formula Junior

    Dec 7, 2003
    732
    Chicagoland
    Full Name:
    Dave Bendl
    Which 70's style leisure suit was this guy wearing when he told you this? Was it Plaid or striped?

    I'd say trade up to that very collectable 250GTE. Then when you read their add stating "now you can own this very rare, and collectable Boxer" you can always make his day and buy your Boxer back from him! Make sure your wearing pants with very deep pockets if you do since he may say the 250 GTE your trading back for the Boxer is one of "those 60's cars that smoke", and that's undesirable.
    Dave
     
  22. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

    bill noon is actually a very respected f-car guy...but alas...a used car salesman. again, understand the context...frank calls and mentioned he is looking for a vintage 12 and tells him he currently has a bbi. noon, hedging, says...well the boxer market is not as strong as you think in fact...i have a brand new one w/ delivery miles that might get a buck and a quarter on a good day. that would make franks car worth like a dime at best. so noon gets franks car at a discount and then sells him a 250 gte and then re-sells the bbi for...$125k!!

    steve barney of sport auto told his son in law and daughter (when asked what ferrari they should buy) that the boxer was the next collectable ferrari!

    guess what guys...i hope steve loves his daughter enough so to help his daughter and son in law make a good decision?

    i suspect he does!!!!

    boxers are bad azz machines and they have a place in history despite there being soooooo many of them!!
     
  23. Arakis36

    Arakis36 Karting

    Jul 27, 2007
    163
    Horrible ????!!!!!!!! Worthless????!!! It's the other way arround for the worthless part... BB hand built, Testarossa production built, guess who's gonna become more valuable????

    Ch
     
  24. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 1, 2002
    23,110
    banana republic of america
    Full Name:
    Israel Beiteinu
    There are a few things that have not been mentioned. A large # of Dinos were rust buckets and turned into junk. In addition (I am not positive), I assume at one point in the past, the Dino was not held in high esteem (no insult to an owner or enthusiast) by the F crowd ? With that and the past rust issues, quite a few cars simply vanished.


    With the Boxer, it was a collectable when it was on the production line. Quite a few Boxer autos were babied from day one. Some owners simply parked them in the garage and hoped 1989 lightning would strike again. Today, I feel the Boxer is somewhat stuck in the middle. It is too old and slow, to be desired by the carbon fibre go fast crowd. It is too new and available, to have strong interest by the classic crowd. These are probably some reasons why, the Dino has become much more expensive, in relation to the Boxer.


    Most dealers will likely beat the car into the ground. They assume at some point soon, an owner is going to be willing to trade it in for below wholesale.
     
  25. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

    May 17, 2006
    12,722
    Dallas, Tx.
    Full Name:
    James K. Woods
    It was said in jest, sir...
     
  26. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 26, 2005
    1,501
    in a house
    Full Name:
    John
    James,
    I think we all realized your comment was in jest,,,,, other than the one guy.
    Just like I'm not trading my boxer for an investment grade 360!
    John
     
  27. gabriel

    gabriel Formula 3

    Anyone remember that Dino Martin had a very early Dino imported to the US for him, and that it was damaged by the longshoreman who moved it with ... a forklift?
     
  28. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
    Arlington Heights IL
    Full Name:
    Kenneth
    If Tom Selleck dove a Boxer, they'd be worth a lot more. It's my opinion that few people outside of FerrariChat even know what a Boxer is. For a flagship Ferrari, to me they always seemed to be under the radar of cars people talk about.

    Ken
     

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