I'm a new guy here, and have enjoyed reading this forum a great deal. You guys obviously know what you're talking about! I might also be in the market for a 512 BB, but have some questions that I didn't find an answer to in the prevous threads. Also, I'd be looking for well maintained driver, with reasonable mileage, and not a garage queen. I guess first, are any year models better than others? Anything to look out for on one year, versus another? I'm not a racer, more a cruiser, but needless to say would like to punch the thing once in a while, and I'm wondering if you can still drive the cars somewhat aggressively? And one last question, at least for now. A buddy has a F355. Any chance I'll be able to stay with him on a winding, curvy road? He's filled me in on all the great points of a 355, but I just love the looks, and the sounds of a 512 boxer! And even if he leaves me in the dust, I'll still be listening to the sounds of 12 weber feed cylinders! Thanks very much in advance for your replys. John
. A buddy has a F355. Any chance I'll be able to stay with him on a winding, curvy road? Probably not but you will definatly look cooler than him driving. Absolutly NOTHING sounds like a carb boxer except the 12 cyl. F-1 cars of that era.Just buy one and leave the F355 for the rice racers to eat up.
I originally wanted a carburated Boxer. It didn't take long to be convinced that for a driver, I would much prefer an injected car, which is what I finally bought. You should consider this also. I am not interested in racing anybody, so I could not care less if a twin turbo Toyota Supra could beat me. You are right to be concerned about mileage. I fell in love with a car with 7200 miles, but feared the potential problems from the lack of use. I di not want a car with more than 25,000 miles, although there is one available from an F-chat participant that is a very well maintained 40,000 miles. I ended up with a car that had 18,000 miles, good for a driver.
What are the issues of the carbed models, other than adjustments, etc? There's certainly a lot more injected ones available than carbed. I assume you have driven yours for some time so possibly you can answer my question regarding aggressive driving. I not talking burn-outs and power shifts, but occasionally quick shifting and running the engine up to, or near red line. The 18 to 25K mileage shouldn't be a problem, but I'm wondering about the 25 years of age. John
A properly set up carb car is nothing to be scared of. Theoretically (well, actually in my case) there can be some additional maintenance costs, but then again depending on the car you get who knows what costs you will run into. I'm having my carbs rebuilt now, but when I first got the car they were well set up and the car was very driveable. No problems in town or traffic or anything. I don't see why people get so worked up about carb Boxers. Yes, if you live in California there are issues. Otherwise, all Ferraris before 1980 had carbs, what's the big deal? You don't hear Daytona owners complaining about driveability issues or carb issues or whatnot. If I had to guess, I would say that hokey federalization schemes probably are the main culprit for the bad reputation. A thorough PPI and a review of who imported it should be enough to sort that out. I would look for an Amerispec imported car, although there were probably some other decent importers.
And as I live in Ca, I have to worry about them. I plan to buy a Ca car if at all possible, but if one is not available, I understand that I need to find one that has the Ca bar sticker? What ever that is! As for carbs, I can see where they'll need more service than injectors, but I would think a good rebuilt set should last for some time. When I first started looking, one dealer told me that if I was going to get into a 512, that I'd better be prepared to fiddle with it! But I don't mind fiddling! And if you're going to fiddle, what better thing to fiddle with than a gorgeous 512BB? In my initial post, I asked if any year models were better than others, and what to look out for, that a PPI might not cover. Any suggestions? Thank you guys for your input. This is going to be my first F-car, and a major expenditure, and I'd like to get it right the first time! JTR
I don't think the year makes much of a difference, but I do think the importer is something to look out for. A good PPI by a knowledgeable shop should find most things. The PPI on my car came back pretty clean-- the only big thing they found was that it would need carb rebuilds fairly soon. (I knew before the PPI that it would need a major service soon). And it did.
I too originally wanted a carbed Boxer but went with a BB512i instead after driving several Boxers including a 365GT4/BB, a couple BB512s and several BB512is. I just liked the way the BB512i drove better. And while I know others disagree, I feel the BB512i is faster, at least in acceleration and at the speeds I normally drive on public roads. I do wish it made that wonderful sound that Webers sucking air make though. But, the BB512i sounds pretty good too!
Lets get right to the point! What is your budget? Or what do you expect to pay for a resonable driver?
You mean you gotta have a budget to buy one! Well I have a couple problems, the first of which is, the Budget, and the second being that I work aboard a ship, no not the navy, and have been aboard this bucket of bolts for almost 60 days now. During that time, my only access to cars and prices has been the internet, and I've searched high and low for cars. I've found quite a few, both BBs and BBis, some still for sale, but most already sold. Lowest priced was about 57K, and the top end on e-bay for a 120K Buy it Now price. Most seemed to go for between about 70 and 80K, and that's about what my Budget is. Maybe a little more for a really good car, or a little less for a really good deal. If I go with a BB, from what I've read here, I'd better go with a CA registered car with some prevous smog certs. Or at least a car with a CA bar sticker, which I assume means it has been certified for CA use. But back to the Budget for a second, I'm just some wanna-be owner floating around out here on the ocean and you guys are the ones who have the cars, so you're in a perfect position to suggest what I should expect to pay for a BB with 15 to 25K miles on it, major service at least fairly current, and red with a black interior please. With a little bit of luck, and that the boat doesn't sink first, I should be back home in San Diego about the 10th of next month. LOOKING! JTR
I spent 15 years w/ a BB512 that I found in Ancona back in 85. I also was able [at the same time] to drive my Dad's BBi. The BBi is more tractable and all round an easier driver. Not only did the injection start easier, but it fouled plugs much less in traffic than the carbed car. I did love my BB, but had to get proficient in changing NGK [forget Champion plugs]. One thing that many might miss is that they changed the clutch mechanism/geometry on the BBi. It required much less effort than the BB-something you would appreciate while in stop and go traffic. Both are fun cars albeit much less civilized than the 355. Hot in summer and cold in winter........ya gotta luv um.
What a great project to come home to! My 2 bits of advice is to first find a reputable mechanic you can work with, there have been a few recommendations for Boxer experts in California in previous postings, if I recall. He'll recommend a PPI process for you, and as he'll be potentially holding your retirement fund in his recommendations, I'd follow it! You'll probalby want to keep some slack in your budget for those little surprises Fcars can have when they wake up after their winter nap.
On almost any public road you can imagine you will stay with a 355 if you know how to drive. From 60 to about 140 a BBI will be quicker than a 355. At a track the cornering limits of a 355 are higher, thats a fact. But on a twisting mountain road no one is at the utlimate limit and you can play with a 355 easily although you will be working and concentrating much harder, which to me is a good thing. I think plan on spending 75-80k for a good boxer. Key issues are major service done, brakes, brake lines and shocks, a drive in the car will tell you if it runs well. Figure $1000 in odd years and $3000 in even years for basic maintanance for a well sorted car, and 7-12k every 6 or so years for a major. None of this is too complicated and the maintanace cost can drop percipetrously if you do the work yourself. The key to enjoying a boxer is to have a tech who knows boxers, ferrari specialists are not necessarily boxer specialists. Start with a sound car, if its not sorted youre in to 5-8k to get it sorted and going right.
Thanks for the great post Boxerman, and all the rest of you for replying! Just the kind of information I was searching for. I'll no doubt be trying both a BB and a BBi for comparison when I get home. I guess that's assuming I can find one available! I do have one more question though if you don't mind. Regarding wheels and tires, does the 512 have metric or american sizes. If metric, are the tires easily found? And is it possible to switch to an american size wheel? Thanks again to all of you. I really appriciate it.
Box = So much car, for relatively little. What do they say ? Buy a real handbuilt Ferrari supercar, for the cost of a top of the line Lexus.
BBs have 15 inch wheels, while BBi's have metric wheels. My 79 512BB window sticker calls for 215/70VR-15s on the front and 225/70VR-15s on the rear. You can get tires for the metric wheels, but they are expensive.
donv, Thanks for the tire and wheel info. Good to know. You mentioned earlier that you had your carbs rebuilt. Did you have an F dealer do it? Also, if you don't mind, could you give me an idea of what a rebuild cost? Even though I'm an engineer on this boat, I don't think I would want to tackle rebuilding webers, at least not right off the bat. I also read in an old post that one guy found some aftermarket 17 or 18 inch wheels that could be had with the 512 splines. The wheels looked like 288 GTO type, and I believe he said 8 and 10 inches wide. Any more info, or comments on this idea?
I bought my 82' BBI last year. Didn't give the carb'ed cars much thought since I've been there, done that. I've had numerious non Ferrari multi carb'ed cars in a previous life, and did not have pleasent experiences. Kind of like an ex-wife, once their out of your hair..... life get's better. Dave
Gary Bobileff (www.bobileff.com) has a nice, BAR-stickered, red/black 512BB for sale right now and he is located in San Diego. I hear it needs a major service but is otherwise quite nice.
just make sure that you have the coin to maintain the car. i have seen the posts of the maint. numbers but i can tell you that you may get lucky for a while but own these cars long enough...you will get hit w/ a 15-20k dollar mech. bill eventually. i always say that these are big boy cars...i promise you they are! i really believe that most cars out there serviced or not, will end up needing another 5-10k to sort out.
This is the story on carb boxers, if you want to hang with or be faster than a 355 get a carbed boxer, big difference in the power and throttle response with them, carb cars are instant in power where as fuel injected cars are not. Anyone that claims they have driven carb boxers and they are the same in performance probably has a carb car running on 10 cylinders, which is highly likely as when carb cars sit they get fuel desposits stuck in the carb passages that clog them, carb cars are also 300 lbs lighter than fuel injected cars as they don't have 2 separate fuel distributors and the rest of the injection components along with additional electrics. Keep in mind CIS was a emmission device and Ferrari was reluctant to put it in there cars until absolutely neccessary which was due to tightening European standards. The following are the cam profiles which show much more aggressive cams for the carb 512 combine that with several hundered pounds less weight there is no way a fuel injected car is faster. Concerning reliabilty who cares, boxers are old school ultra exotic Ferraris, totally unpractical complete with fragile aluminum bodywork and the rest that goes with them. Carb boxer - Intake 262 234 208 .348 FI Boxer - Intake 247 223 200 .342
I considered having my local dealer do it, as the owner of that dealership personally owns three Boxers (including a twin-turbo), so they have a fair amount of Boxer experience. However, for some other reasons, I took it to a local independent Ferrari specialist, who is also quite good. As far as rebuilding the carbs go, I decided to send them out to Pierce Manifolds, who are the experts on Webers.
You guys are really great! You're giving me the good, and the not so good about 512 BB/BBi ownership, and I really appreciate it! Maybe in some respects I should start with a newer model as a first car, something more, ah, civilized. But a 512 boxer has been a dream for a long time! To my eye, the 308/328 lines are timeless, and absolutely gorgeous, and they carry through in the 512 in a most provocative way! An exotic pleasing mistress, and by necessity expensive to keep. Maybe a newer model would do the trick. But mightn't I liken that to a guy marrying a gal, and then forever wishing he'd married the sister? So what's a guy to do? I think the first thing I'll do when I get home is scoot on down to Bobileff motors and check out their BB, if it's still available. It looks like a nice car in the pictures, but I wonder why the upholstery needed replacing. And I think someone mentioned in another thread that the paint on the front was a little faded. Worth a look anyway, as it isn't far. Ferraripete, I noticed you live in San Diego also. Any chance of getting together with you via telephone? It sounds like you're a long time owner, and I'm sure you could answer some of the 101 questions I still have! westmfg1, Thanks for the cam profile info on the BB BBi. I'm familiar with lift, duration, and lobe centers, but don't know which of your numbers are which. I assume the .348 is lift? I need off This BOAT!
I love it when you guys provide links...I can add that place to my "when I get enough money I can look here for a Ferrari" links. I also see they have a Miura! Oh how I wish!!! I have a Porsche 914 and LOVE the looks of it, then I saw a Miura one day and loved the looks of that even more! P.S. My only complaint to dealers is SHOW THE PRICE! Give me a number, a goal to strive for...some of us grew up poor and are making our way to the top.
