A general concours question

Sounds like you got your balls busted at a local FCA event. When we did FCA PA/NJ we would NEVER ding a guy for a conversion from Euro to US, unless it was botched. If the car looked right, then it was ok.

These are not national events. There are FCA guidelines for how to judge, not "cavallino" guidelines, at least when we judged cars at the PA/NJ, and plenty of those cars were converted to US spec.

You're not gonna win the argument, but you probably should be ok getting gold, and knowing in your heart that a judge who was a little less of an ****** would have given you platinum.

D

 

well, they're right about the TUBI, and a full point under the hood is ok as well.

I had a run in with a concours judge over the side markers on my US spec Dino. He said, they're alfa markers. I said, nope, they are Dino AND alfa side markers, and then showed him the pictures a couple different books I always carried when doing the concours thing.

Didn't matter, dinged me a point at the New Hope concours, my car ended up 3rd in the Italian class, behind a daytona (deserved 1st) and a hot rodded 308 that belonged to one of the judges.

sometimes there's no winning.

The next year? finished 1st in the Italian class with no modifications and different judges.

You're lucky the judge actually took the time to explain it, I guess. Not much you can do about it except hope for different judges net year.

D

 

I am not sure why an FCA judge would say it is judging pursuant to “Cavallino” rules when both FCA and Cavallino use the IACPFA rules (my info is a few years old). All I can say about regional FCA judging is that the competency will range from superb to “trying their best.” Remember to drive the pants off your car!!

 

Below is a link to the FCA section regarding concours judging guidelines as well as the Cavallino Classic judging guidelines. Both are the same - the internationally recognized standards set forth by the IAC/PFA. While concours competition is a passion of mine, I personally can’t comment with any authority as I am not a judge, but your issues regarding the regulatory items are clearly addressed in sections 8 and 10. In the future I would be prepared to point these out at the beginning of judging and also have photos of other cars to show the consistency. Also important to keep in mind is that these are international guidelines not just for US concours. The judges are dedicated and passionate. They do it out of the love for the preservation of Ferrari’s. That said, they aren’t perfect and can’t know everything. The owner/presenter has a responsibility to address any details and issues regarding their car, and support those issues with documentation. As for your mods, such as your Tubi exhaust, etc., those are very valid deductions. If concours competition and originality are a high priority to you then I would reverse these mods. If not, don’t sweat it and enjoy your car as is. I hope this helps.

https://www.ferrariclubofamerica.org/index.cfm/ID/218/IAC/PFA

https://www.cavallinoclassic.com/single-post/2018/09/25/The-Power-of-97

 

As I read it, unless there is something unusual about your conversations, you should not have received deductions. Normally, the first thing done when judges introduce themselves is they will ask you if there is anything unique or special about your car, at which time you should proactively address these issues and produce your documentation. As I stated earlier, bring photos of other cars that have had the same work done. I’m sure you can find some online and others on this forum can likely share photos of their cars.

 

I don’t believe the Cavallino Classic links worked. Here they are:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/4201df_f6888ccfd7fa4978972fb1030cffc9e0.pdf

And this is for preservation class judging (which is different than standard concours judging):

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/4201df_a2905a9125484bb1a29d142133502a59.pdf

 

I'm not an expert in awards and judging, but here's an alternate viewpoint: a Euro model should have no US/DOT conversion mods - especially under the hood.

The fact that either a federal or a state agency required the air pump to be added to the Euro, for example, is inconsequential. They are not original to the car (and most Euros don't have this equipment added.) They ARE original on an "American" car. So: as your car is a European model, they are judging it accordingly.

 

Actually, this is an excellent and very valid point. It is “muddy” because these alterations were required, and the judging guidelines make provisions for them, but, they are not original. I can understand why the judges struggled a bit.

 

As an FCA judge and entrant for many decades, absolutely you are pushing the issue way, way too much!

 

Agreed, but that doesn't mean the car is as-delivered by Ferrari.

For example, I'd expect a North American 308 to pass Concours with smog controls, as this is how it was intended. But an imported Euro 308 would not originally have such equipment (mine doesn't). Therefore, expect a point deduction on it.

You would face a similar situation by trying to import a Euro car to California. In Florida, this car would be completely original. But in California, that added required emissions equipment makes the car non-original.

Concourse, as I understand it, is somewhat about factory authenticity... Not what was done to make a grey-market car registerable.

 

Rules are not muddy at all, he just didn't know them. I am on the panel that makes the rules, it is very simple. You show it in full EU trim or you show it in fully converted trim. We do not care if smog equipment works, only that it look functional. I would suggest however since no 2 are alike that you have documentation of what DOT and EPA mods were made.

I judged the F40 class at the Ferrari 70th anniversary in Maranello. I was faced with a bunch of European F40's with equipment variations not available in the US so I was not familiar with them all. In every case the owner was happy to explain them to me and in most cases had supporting documentation. Fortunately in every case in question the owner spoke excellent English.

 

Additionally we have a standard for deductions. We need to be able when asked to explain in detail why a deduction was made and EXACTLY what is correct.

I would strongly suggest you contact Chris Current at the FCA and tell him of the trouble you had and if at all possible the names of the individuals involved.

 

Not muddy at all. Just a lack of understanding of our goals. Ferrari's are meant to be driven. We have no desire to punish those that have a European model who want to be able to legally operate it on American roads. We would not deduct for the installation of seat belts in a 250 either.

 

I disagree 100%. I am a Master Judge and a board member of the IAC/PFA. When a car is judged wrong there is no way for the judge to be corrected and the problem to be solved unless it is brought up and reported to us.

 

Brian - thanks for contributing to this. So, please clarify, from what you’ve read, should he have been deducted for the alterations to his car?