A great article....and noting why cars from the past are going up in value.

how's the car search going? Have you driven one yet?

 

I've driven numerous cars with more power than my 308QV.

I've driven few cars more fun than my 308QV.

I'm no Chris Harris, and my opinion matters little than to anyone other than me. I could see a Lotus Elise being an absolute blast, and would take one over just about anything else if fun were the main driver.

 

yup.

I get racing at a track or dragstrip for competition. I'll never get the "my car is faster than yours" for stock cars on the street. All it means is that one person bought a faster car from a manufacturer.

I do love how seeing an exotic car out in public (being driven, not parked in the city) is exciting. Like a shark swimming through the fish. That still holds true no matter the age or speed capabilities of the car.

Light cars are fun. I drove an Elise a while ago and I may need one to replace the motorcycles (I'm old).

 

Sometimes?


Old cars are more involving in other ways as well. What can the owner of a modern car do in terms of maintenance or repair?

 

Not sure I completely agree with his argument but he has a point. The hypercars of the past decade have gotten ridiculously expensive to buy and operate, as well as being more driver-friendly. And that usability is both a strength and a detriment for them. The population of well-heeled potential buyers that want a car they can actually trust to start and run as a regular vehicle probably outweigh the number that want a 1000 hp version of the 288GTO or Porsche 935.

My guess is at some level anyone looking to spend well over a million dollars on a new car that will depreciate has more than their enjoyment from driving alone, having a 1500hp car capable of 290 mph also buys a bit of bragging rights at the yacht club.

So the automakers cater to the former group above (also government rules make most of these features mandatory anyway). The latter group spends their money elsewhere on what is considered blue-chip investment vehicles like the 2.7RS mentioned in the article.

But for more common exotics (think 308, Countach, or 930) I think there are two factors contributing to the recent rise in sale prices, and neither one are because drivers are hankering for the good old days of no ABS and manual transmissions.

1) There are plenty of people who have made a good chunk of money in the past few years that are right at the age where when these cars were new they were in grade school and imprinted that "this is what an exotic looks like", not unlike a duckling imprinting on its mother. This extra money available means the cars will be bid up. A Countach or Dino today is over $300k, the guys that did very well buy those. The guys that didn't do as well but still did better than most buy $70k 930s and $60k 308s. In truth the "real" value of these cars is about half of that. One big stock market correction and you will see them return to sanity.

2) The cost of new cars makes these inflated prices more palatable for everyday exotics. New cars do not look alike, but many constraints forced on them by automakers mean most look familiar. If you want something different you have to look older or bring six figures+$$. But what is any self-respecting middle-manager going to do? Go old and buy a Alfa Romeo Spyder, or splurge and buy a 308? When you look at what even a BMW Z4 sells for new, the cost of a 308 isn't that high. If he was going to spend $50k anyway, why not get the Ferrari? Again, wait until we enter recession again and you will see the prices of old exotics and new car sales plummet.

 

Agree, it's not like Porsche, Bugatti, Ferrari and others aren't listening to their customers.

He sorta did. A 400-bhp Bugatti?

That's the issue. Back when the Countach and Boxer were the R&T cover cars every other month (or so it seemed), you had those two plus the Porsche 930 and Lotus Esprit that outperformed everything else with an engine by an astonishing margin. Now you can get those numbers in many cars, and the handling and braking are uniformly excellent. ("Brake fade," for example, used to be written up in most contemporary road tests... now its absence is taken for granted.)

Unfortunately, the performance frontier has been conquered, so as Chris Harris writes it's hard to get excited about the new Veyron.

I would add that all of the technology is surefire depreciation timebomb. Cars from the past are just simpler -- whatever breaks in my Porsche 356 is fixable, as long as the SD-Zero (screwdriver) diagnostic/maintenance tool remains in production.

And this. Vintage cars are as fun now as they ever have been. Maybe moreso.

 

Mr. Harris captures my reaction to these supercar announcements perfectly. It's why I stopped reading mainstream car mags years ago. Why doesn't it matter that the modern Bugatti is a supremely ugly car? Why doesn't Pininfarina or somebody design a supercar that the driver can see out of?

Thanks for posting the article, I agree with him.

 

Many years ago, I had a perfectly set-up Miata - suspension, brakes, alignment, fat wheels and tires, and Whipple/Bell supercharged. Handled like a slot car, as well as some racers I've had or driven. Brilliant handling and feel, and would light the rears in 2nd on the way to running with friends' Vettes and 911s to redline in 5th.
One day, curiosity got me, and I swapped the fat wheels and tires for the original tall sidewalls skinny tires, and had so much more fun that the the others never went on again until I was selling the car.

I'll take Feel over bragging rights of an academic increment, any day. Still like going fast, but I want to feel it by the seat of my pants and fingertips, not the dial on the dash.

 

We are trying to go lighter, simpler, smaller. Our design is totally modular one that any handy person can bolt and unbolt easily to repair. Our base road car will have 630HP and weigh under 2400bls. Should be peppy enough for most.

Best!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152780731099941&set=vb.683964940&type=2&theater

 

And I hope you succeed greatly. It sounds like a kick ass car. But it takes someone like you to do that. To expect GM, Ford, Daimler Benz or even Ferrari to do that with their bloated corporate hierarchy and stock holders to please is a non starter. You know the old saying about a mule was a horse designed by committee. You are a modern day Carrol Shelby and only operations like that can bring a product to market with focus on such a narrow part of the marketplace.

 

In Jim We Trust!

Pretty sexy video!

 

It is a false belief that there are not plenty of buyers for what is called an anologue car. How many 997 Gt3's did porche shift per year, as many as they could make.

Modern tech can make for reliable cars, full of power, without loosing vharisma, its purely a fiunction of deire and spec.

The problem these days is the measure of performance. Yes the performance barriers have been conquered, even a M5 already smokes pretty much everythign on street, so why buy a sportcar these dyas. Maybe the numbers are slightly better, the design is appealing and apparently you make a "statement" drivign one. What baout the peopel who just really you know like to drive and would like a "fine" machine to do it in.

Performance in a sportscar needs to come to mean a lot more thanb just Hp or 0-60. Sportscars can offer the virtues of light weight hopped ups edans cant, they can offer throttle response infintly precise turbos cant. Every control can be a delight.

Sadly one needs only look at porche to see this all beinfg diluted. EPS taking away steerign comunication. No stick removing an area of inetraction and the turbo only future, not to mention mass and bloat.

What are most sportscars today, why they are smaller luxuxry cars that go a bit faster.

Once one manuafacturer figures out that they have a niche by offering "real" sportscars the oehers may catch on. Yes it wont be for everyone, or even mainstream. It will be on paper slower, but it will be acore product that keeps the "brand" promise alive.

In the lower price bracket mazda has this niche already with the miata. Even the wrx has this. Fearrari and porche are abandoning it theur core and core cliental. But then we see ferrari struggle to maintain 7k sales, I ams ure they woudl love a porduct with an extra 1.5 k sales per year. A product that wont just depreciate into another used car.

Now for sure , the bulk of sportscar buyers want their cars useable, easy in traffic etc, and thta is fine, no one argues with bandonoing that . Yet there is definitively a core who still want real cars, globaly probably 5-10k units per year. Someone is going to pick up those sales.

One future of sportscars was useability, ferrari and porche figured that out and grew sales to people who traditionaly would never buy their products, but what about the peopel who used to buy their products.

Now anotehr future dawns, call it the modern 250swb. With road and traffic restrictions a sprotscar needs to be enjoyable to drive at 5/10ths on the street, yet capable of hammering all day at a de event, out the box. So far the prior Gt3, C6zO6 and loti are the machines that fit this mold, plus inumerable componant cars. In time there will be more.

What attracts perfoance driver to a car these days, is not race results in some esoteric race series. What attracts is cars you can drive tot he track, on the track all day and then home. The recreational performnce drive goes to de events, and de events have expolded along with car country clubs. Peoiple see what works int hat enviroment, and thta becomes desired.

I dont see the new AMG Gt or nay numberr of new bloat cars qualifying.

If you dont think the De crowd is a core market robust enough to build products for, how does one explain the sold out 75K camaro.

 

The explanation for the $75k Camaro, you can drive it. No need to worry about miles and depreciation. Service is probably simple and cheap compared to F or P cars. It's about the CAR, not the lifestyle, ego, statement that have been branded with other marques.

 

He did not propose going backwards on tech, just HP and weight.

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152787748264941&set=vb.683964940&type=2&theater

 

My sense of scaling may be off with the large frame members. Are we looking at 650 hp there?

What an undertaking though! Thanks so much for sharing. Makes me wish I was closer to try and finagle my way into your organization!

 

I have driven a couple of them.

 

I have driven a couple of them.

 

Base Race will be about 600HP/600FT/LB torque.
Base road about 630/630. Tub size is for stiffness of chassis which is very high.

 

Yep and untill Fearri and Porche start building some few car models again that are about the CAR primarily and brandy frooo froo second they will continue to decline in credibility, amongst the core.

Now some may say so what. But every high end car maker attaches their product to soemthimg from the rpesent or past to add cred. For a pure sportscar maker that is even more critical. Ferrari has sought to do this through F1 victories and historic Bs attached to some branding image on road cars. But F1 is more and more esoteric and irrelevant to road cars. And without the core product, they will be handbag companies, which may or may not be viable long term. Besides which 2000 premium core cars per year is a good and viable buiness plan as has been seen many times.


Somewhere they need to start makign cars that are DE day kings, because today that is very relevant, and whata lot of peopel who actualy drive or aspire to look towards. The Camro prooves this is a robust market, and the camaro is seriously compromised as a street car.

Now some may argue thta there is a big difference between a 75k and a 250k car buyer. I woudl argue that most z28 buyers come from the 250K market, they just want a kick ass track car, whereas most camaro buyers cant afford to a buy a z28 esp as it makes a poor only car.

As to service costs. if you track, two of the biggest expenses are tires and pads. Certainly tires, a 3800-4000lbs(wet) z28 is going to run a huge tire expense.

A 2800lbs 6c (ise ttv6 based 4c) is going to use a whole lot less tires and brakes. If its a stick besides tires and brakes what can maintanance be. oil brake fluid. These cars even from ferrari need not be ruinous to run.

A speciale at 350k with ceramics and pdk is hardly going to be tracked. Even if the 350 entry and desire to protect an asett is not a barrier to tracking, even a billioaire will blanche at the running costs for a weekend of fun. So durability and running costs are a big factor for anybody with a brain regardless of entry cost. Its also part of the issue witht he new "better" 991 Gt3, along with PDK only and lack of street fun at semi sane speeds.

If porche could easily sell 2500 997 gt3's, ferrari can do the same with soemthing similar. In fact the 997 GT3 is the template for how youdo this with modern tech. A still robust and viceral car, short of creature comforts without being ounishingly spartan, relatively light, but still annalogue. Not the fatests, but probably a froint runner if you run track all day..

BTW a 997.2 Gt3 sells for more now than new, despite the 991 gt3 being "faster" kinda tells you something about what people value, at least in this segemnt.

My guess is porche and ferrari figured if there were no viceral optuions people would be forced into their blanded products, or the marketing side figures non driver means mroe sales again, and the enginerrs became obsessed with numbers over appeal. Yet as the aritcle states there are plenty choosing to buy older cars(not all 1 mill either), or componant cars because there are no/few relevant new cars beign built. I know I am building aSPF GT40 after trying a 458 and Mp12, and its not soem huge input cost saving, although to run may be much less..

Cant wait for the 3000lbs mid engined vette then.

 

Now you just need to figure how to build it a little simpler so it can sell for 250K.
I can suggest as a componant car, ie roller with motor sold speratly, which will neatly reduce development costs and allow you to keep weight down. Or once developed license out the production to some compoany that maybe can for that price. Cosiddeer it a gift to drivers and automobiledom.