A little help please for a potential Dino buyer!

Serial number would be a helpful start. Plenty of folks here with info on a car if we know which car. Also, the Dino Register will tell you more.

Best to get the car to a mechanic for a PPI.

Many "well sorted" Dinos require tens of thousands of dollars of work to really sort them out.

Although I think I'd rather buy right, do the work with a mechanic I know, and be ok on price rather than buy one that is "all sorted out" by someone I don't know.

$95K for a driver in this market? Do we all think that's the going price?

And unless by some miracle he can document the 25K on the odo, I'd suspect, like many of these cars, that you need to add 100K to that number.

DM

 

Sorry to disagree, but buying a car that is truly sorted by the PO is the way to go.

As an example, I bought my Dino 1.5 years ago and have spent ZERO on repair.

 

Yes, but you KNEW the seller.

And he sent you the 3" notebook full of receipts, and photos of the restoration, and all the work was done by a certified Ferrari Master Mechanic. In fact, a master mechanic who just finished first in the USA in Ferrari's mechanic test.

Not the same as buying a "sorted" car from an unknown seller.

DM

 

My Dino (#1706)was diretly behind yours on the factory line in Maranello
This was 18th of march in 1971 and also sold in Italy.
At least if you have some pictures I can tell you what should be original and what not ;-)

 

I purchased a car (not a Dino) located in that same area and I used Todd Brown of performanceoutfitters.com and I was pleased with the pre-purchase report I received. I believe that he is knowledgeable about vintage Italian cars, but I did not visit his shop so I don't know much more than that.

Hope this helps.

 

Where in Connecticut? Call Tom Champion, available on this chat board. He knows Dinos like no other.

And if the PPI says that compression is low on one cylinder, what are you going to do? Not buy it? You will kick yourself 2 years from now. Does it matter if compression is low on a cylinder (for example)? Are you going to race the car and need every p.s.i. available? I don't think so. If the brakes shimmy, will that keep you from owning it?

If these, or similar issues keep you from buying a Dino at a fair price (more fair than 6 months ago), then I posit that it is not the car, but your level of enthusiasm versus the expenditure that is inhibiting you.

What does this all mean? Get a knowledgeable Dino owner to look over the car with you, perhaps drive it, and make your decision. I do not believe in PPIs, even as a negotiating tool. When I sell one of my Dinos (unlikely), I will politely offer to the potential purchaser that I won't give a hill-of-beans credence to the PPI. If you want to purchase my Chevy, then sure, knock yourself out, get a PPI. But if you don't want my Dino based on a PPI, then I can appreciate your concern. Go down the street and buy another (I doubt you will find one).

Jim S.

 

Jim.

your advice runs contrary to that of most of the folks here, including the mechanics who work on these kinds of cars for a living.

Perhaps your deep seated knowledge gives you a comfort level in buying a car that a novice might not have, and some of the "small problems" can be quite expensive to repair on these, even if you do know how to turn your own wrench.

I appreciate your position, but respectfully suggest that it's not one for a noob to take when buying a Dino. Even having someone who owns one come along may help to point out obvious flaws in a car, but my not help you sort out a car that's been bent, mechanically neglected or that is in need of major help. I for one, even after 5 years of ownership and a complete overhaul of my Dino, would not be comfortable helping with the purchase of a Dino, beyond discussing what a car might need cosmetically to score well at concours.

If you can "seat of the pants" a PPI on one of these, then you're one in a million. A leakdown test, a check of the mechanicals, and having a knowledgeable guy give you a punch list of issues with the car can help you make an informed decision. I used my PPI to negotiate a $20K reduction in price on the Dino I bought. Ask the dealer. We negotiated price on the car, and included having HIS mechanic check the car and reduce the price by anything he found that the car needed to make it right. The list was over $20K, price went down by said same amount.

Even if the seller is set on a price, and feels he has taken all if the cars issues into account at that price, a PPI will give the buyer a good idea of what's in store for him. The fewer surprises the better I think.

Oh, and even with a good PPI, something will pop up you didn't expect, that'll cost some real money, but at least you'll be 90% prepared.

Dave

 

Dave - your comments are appreciated, and well received. Yes, having done frame-up restorations on three Dinos, including mechanicals, plus helping others do a number of engines, suspensions, electrics, etc., provides a comfort level.

My reservations concerning PPIs speaks more to the absence of a commodity market. There are only a few Dinos for sale at any one time. By now, in 2009, most have had work done on them (not all - I own an original with 8,000 miles). Hence, most owners, having purchased a car that cost more owing to the previous owners investment, or having invested restoration dollars themselves, are unlikely to lower the price based on the "nit-picking" of a hired gun (PPI). I am being unfair, and apologize for the previous sentence, but that is how most come across when trying to negotiate based on often unimportant PPI observations. For example, a 10% compression differential between cylinders, or a blown fuse in a lamp circuit, or a clunk in a shock absorber. Yes, these issue, and many like them, may cost money for the novice, but they are to be expected in 40-year old cars.

As I type, I realize that, perhaps, the difference is whether you are purchasing from a dealer or private owner. I would not trust the dealer, who is rather dispassionate about the transaction. Private owners, I naively submit, are more honest about their presentation.

In summary, if there are 30 Dinos for sale in the Sunday paper in your region, then yes, PPI and negotiate. However, as I have written many times on F-Chat, every car that I have chosen not to purchase based on some mechanical/cosmetic reason has resulted in great frustration several years later. My reluctance to purchase proved to be misguided, and based more on my economic status at the time, and less on the quality of the car.

Jim

 

Jim,

30? Nope.

10 - probably.

And even if there's only 1, I wouldn't want it to be the wrong one.

When I bought my car, I knew there was a long list of needs, none superficial, and I paid appropriately. I think this would apply to any Dino purchase, and that any seller who wants to hold out and find a sucker to pay $30K too much for a car will eventually find a buyer. It just won't be me, thanks to a proper PPI.

DM

 

Dave - I have not properly articulated my thoughts. What I am trying to say is that I can't pick a bottom price. I may have paid 5 or 10% more for a car, and I am willing to live with that. The PPI provides negotiating points that may offer you a few percentage points. When someone pays $100k for a car, and they over pay by 10%, they may never know it, and in the mean time, they are enjoying the ride. If they get buyer's remorse a year from now, they sell the car for close to what they paid. It is not as though they lost $100k. I see this as simply a transfer of assets from one form to another. Enjoy the asset, then transfer it back to another form. Most, however, purchase the cars for the long haul, to be left to their children. In 30 years, will the 5% over payment mount to a hill of beans? Or will one feel better when looking back 30 years from now and feel that they were smarter than the seller, and they saved 5% by not buying the car!!

The PPI provides an excuse not to buy the car at the price. I don't need that excuse. If I want the car, I live with its warts and negotiate based on what's evident and fair. If I don't want the car, it likely has little to do with the car and more with my state of mind.

Thanks for allowing me to ramble. In matters of opinion, debate is superfluous.

Jim S.

 

The critical area of a PPI on a Dino for me would be Compression Tests and a Leakdown test - as compression alone is not the whole story. If possible also get an engine and transaxle oil analysis done as it can reveal things about the health of these items.

Always factor into the equation that you're buying a used car and just like any used car there will be unforseen needs so budget for it - belts, brakes, hoses, the 3 coolant pipes in the engine, coolant tank, filters and fluids may all need to be changed out. If the car is to be a "driver" then many here m ay suggest you install an aftermarket ignition box (MSD, Perma-tune, etc.) as it can make quite a bit of difference in how the car starts and runs.

In all reality these cars are simple and easy to work on. The Dino has far fewer parts that most Ferraris and in this case, simpler is better. If you're a DIY guy then we can help you, show you which parts to buy, where they are located and how to source them. This IS one of the most cohesive groups on FerrariChat and also one of the most vocal.

Looking forward to welcoming a new owner!

 

When I bought my first Dino ('74 GTS) I was terrified by the following article :Sheehan Speaks(Sportscar Market 1/03)...a $2,000.00 hose job! He went on to relate the following expenses for a Dino- Hoses and Radiator - $2,000.00 (because the radiator is in the FRONT of the car)...Um Ok...I did mine for $375.00. He related flaccid front shcoks $1,000.00 ...Um ok ...Koni rebuilt mine for $250 (both), He related "desperately needed to be rebuilt radiator fans" $600.00...Um ok... they are actually Lucas Fans and are found on old Jags(XK'S Unlimited #LU78497) ...about $ 100.00 bucks (for both). He related a cracked headlight switch $1,000.00..Um ok..if you had a cracked head you might pay that. He related abused 1st gear synchro $4500.00...Um ok... if the syncro is bad it is usually second...see cracked head comment. He related inoperable horn $300.00 Um ok..mine was bad & took 11 minutes to clean & reconnect the wires. If you want-- go a little crazy and buy new ones at Superformance $23.00 bucks. He related dragging front brakes $1,000.00 Um ok...mine were dragging because the brake hose collapsed- $80.00 (cost of lines for all FOUR brakes) from Superformance or really go all out & buy the caliper kits (ATE brakes from Porsche '72 911(front) & 914-6 (rear)) I might be off but $30 - $40 bucks? How about this one...multiple engine leaks $7,500.00 Um ok ..Superformance sells a COMPLETE gasket kit for $343.00>> I could go on & on. In short Mr Sheehan has a great business and knows his way around Ferrari's. However, for the mere mortals that have fun doing BASIC mechanical work these cars are relatively straight forward and inexpensive to fix (there -I said it!!!). Don't go crazy worrying about the repairs when looking at one of these. There are a lot of bright, helpful (J.S., OMG, RZ, Coop, J.C. -RIP, etc) guys that have "done that, been there" before. They are anxious to help & know what they are talking about. The cars are fun, great looking and a blast to drive. They are FIATS with Ferrari styling- a great combo!!! Take one down & have some fun!!

 

It still requires more than a minimal amount of skill to effect these repairs.

I'm just going to break two down, that I attempted myself (well, actually succeeded on one).

Burned out cooling fan.

1. Determine it's not the fuse. (took me three fuses to be sure.)
2. Double check the wiring. (I hot wired the fan, it still wouldn't turn.)
3. Find replacement (yep, it's a lucas part, yes can be purchased from Moss motors)
4. Try, for a couple hours, to slip the fan out without removing the radiator.
5. Eventually free the fan, with the radiator in place. Cost you a knuckle or two.
6. Replace the fan with the lucas part. (Lose two more knuckles)
7. Put the rest of the parts back together, grill etc.

Oh, and I don't have a lift, so this is done on your back, with the car on jack stands.

Now, I'm not a great mechanic, but I can turn a wrench, and I'm telling you, this would have been a hell of a lot easier for an experienced mechanic than it was for me. If I had another fan quit, it was going to be my mechanic's job. Would that be worth the money? Lemme see. Figure about 4 hours total in/out swap the part at $150/hr. Yup. Works for me.

Bad Thermostat.

1. Remember my youth, when a thermostat was a 1/2 hour fix. Pull, test replace if necessary. Ok, maybe an hour.
2. Find Thermostat on the Dino (ten minutes)
3. remove three bolts on thermostat housing (one of which is almost impossible to get to. I think I ground down a socket, or a wrench to get it.) probably an hour by the time I was done.
4. Remove thermostat, test.
5. replace faulty thermostat.
6. replace housing. (Backwards. Oops, who knew the damn thing would remount wrong.) hook up hoses, which is a ***** with the housing on wrong. burp lines, run car..
7. Car still overheats. Well, no surprise, thermostat housing is on wrong.
8. consult bad photocopy of repair manual, again. Remount housing correctly.
9. Car still overheating.
10. Take to dealer, get it fixed.
11. Take several aspirin for sore back.

I think sometimes we paint these repairs as simple. Sure, it's probably easier than trying to rebuild a new Ferrari engine, but most of this stuff isn't all that easy for a pretty talented amateur mechanic. To paint it otherwise is misleading. I've been fixing stuff on my own cars since the 70's, and I was NEVER comfortable doing mechanical repairs on the Dino. Maybe value had something to do with it, or the lack of a GOOD Chilton repair manual, who knows. I had no problem working on my Porsche Boxster S, the repair manual for that is excellent.

I don't want to discourage the OP in any way. Buy a Dino and love it forever, but be aware that they ain't cheap, and they ain't always simple to repair.

None of which should discourage the purchase. I'll have a warm spot in my heart for my Dino forever, and likely someday will buy another.

DM

 

Scott - I posit that "how the car runs" is more important than the compression test. Several Dino owners on this chat board have torn down their engine because of a low cylinder compression. However, it may be do to prolonged, low mileage driving with carburettors adjusted too rich. My 8,000 mile Dino had a throbbing piston (owing to lower compression than the others), and when I tuned the carbs correctly, drove it sanely for a 30 mile stint, rechecked the compression, it was back to normal. And even if a cylinder reveals a relatively low compression, so what? Is it worth pulling an engine specifically for this issue? Not for me. I would wait until I pull the engine for another reason. I would drive and enjoy the car for years, and then fix it when the list grows long.

Thus, to not purchase a car because of a compression test, when it drives well, or to do an oil analysis looking for particles, sounds as though one is looking for an excuse NOT to buy the car.

I respect the position that the PPI offers comfort, but when the big picture is sought, owning a Dino is not about comfort, but about excitement....from the very beginning.....including the purchase.

Jim S.

 

I heard the previous owner sold the Dino to buy an F360 coupe.

 

While the group has provided great input as it relates to the necessity/virtues of a PPI, etc., there are few comments about the price. While prices may have settled a bit from the $500k+ sale of a "perfect" chairs and flares GTS at auction, they are not as low as your message suggests. I think it would be difficult to find a Dino (even a GT, Euro, etc.) that sold this low in a LONG time.

You are either getting a car that is a basket case, or the buy of the year. At that price assume you're going to spend some money (5 figures), hope it doesn't get too crazy and you'll still be way ahead of current market prices and likely to remain ahead of market prices for the entire time you own the vehicle. If you choose to pass on a Dino for less than $100k, it won't take long for another buyer to scoop it up.

Good luck!!

 

The OP post was from 2009!

 

Sorry - my bad...

 

Ouch. I would need some serious counseling.