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A new Ferrari free of all smog saving GPF, muffling turbo/hybrid technology etc.?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by 96redLT4, Sep 7, 2019.

  1. 96redLT4

    96redLT4 Karting

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    ....and let's throw in the option of a manual transmission ala the GT3 Touring. OK sorry for the clickbait, but why can't a small exclusive manufacturer like Ferrari whose tradition is steeped in the beauty, SOUND and overall feel of the driving experience build a car that says 'blank the regulations'. I know they are concerned, especially now, with profit but I think people would pay up for a car like this. Even if they built it for only niche markets. Is there some kind of a universal law that says all cars have to continue moving in the current direction? I am as anti-smog as the next Californian but come on. The 458 and even the 430 and 360 are not polluting cars. Thoughts??

    Jim
     
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  2. RedTaxi

    RedTaxi Formula 3
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    Any new car has to comply with the latest emissions limits. Period. Including 458, 430, 360. A track only car that's not road legal doesn't though.
     
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  3. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Simple answer is they can't.
     
  4. IloveGT

    IloveGT Karting

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    Ferrari is a publicly traded company, it needs to answer to stockholder. Also it cannot supercede any regulation, otherwise, the car cannot be sold to be on the road. Then the whole purpose of having a company to make profit will be defeated.

    Just go buy the older Ferrari now...
     
  5. Dicecal

    Dicecal Formula Junior
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    And get beat by Teslas....
     
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  6. willrace

    willrace F1 World Champ
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    .....just like the new Ferraris.
     
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  7. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Isn't this what Lotus is supposed to be? Are they even in business anymore? How many times have they declared bankruptcy or near bankruptcy appeasing purists with their crap cars?

    Its all about the benjamins and putting them where the mouth is. For all the "purists" out there, they don't actually BUY manual Ferrari's when they were offered or buy smaller displacement cars.
     
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  8. lmpdesigner

    lmpdesigner Formula 3
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    Pure "essence" sports cars just do not sell well. Lotus had the best "pure" sports car on earth in their Elise/Exige series and though they sold okay-people were not beating their doors down to get one. Alfa has same issues with the 4C.

    When I was designing the Ford GT I wanted to keep the "wizz bang" stuff to a minimum. But Ford-and correctly-understood that the customer wanted that whizz bang stuff, so in it went.

    There may be a market for a pure "sports car" but so far no one has succeeded very well in it! Don't blame the mfg's blame "ourselves". The customer yells for "X" but almost always buys "Y". Ferrari knows this better than you and I do-after all they have been successful in this market for a very long time.
     
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  9. IloveGT

    IloveGT Karting

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    Yes, but mine got more chicks!
     
  10. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 World Champ
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    That's exactly the opposite way everything is going. Ferrari will cling to the ICE as long as they can, but you know they are already working on a pure EV. And it will smoke all of their previous ICE cars too, with a motor for each wheel, ABS and traction control for each wheel, torque vectoring &c. No ICE cars will ever be able to compete with that. It wouldn't even matter if some of the regs were rolled back - and I think some will be - because in the quest for max performance, electric cars will soon have no equal.

    I like my old ICE Ferraris, but they are dinosaurs, as am I. :)
     
  11. 96redLT4

    96redLT4 Karting

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    I'm glad to see a few responses in this thread. I know it seems like a ridiculous question but I just wonder what the overall governing authority is who says we have to keep going further down this rabbit hole of ever further scrubbed exhaust gasses and cars that sound like a vacuum cleaners if they sound like anything at all. Maybe we need someone like Trump to say 'blank the regulations'. Companies should just go out and build the best sounding best performing car that they can and let the consumer decide.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/10/trump-defends-scrapping-ban-inefficient-lightbulbs-look-better/

    J
     
  12. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    Basically, you can't build a car under 2600 pounds due to crash worthiness standards. When I started driving there were 1600 pound sports cars.
    Then, you an build a car without CATs and mufflers, you just can't sell them as street cars, and may race tracks also have sound limits.
     
  13. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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    All Ferrari's currently have ABS and traction control at each wheel....but no torque vectoring. However, torque vectoring as enabled by electric motors gives a car more control over what you are doing than maybe what you want it to do, it can be very distracting.

    As for max performance, 92L fuel tank on an 812 is 24 gallons of fun! Let the market speak, the NSX is not well loved, been out for about 3 years, not exactly a sales leader, not pure EV but has these attributes you mention.

    I think the big point here is, let the marketplace work, if full electric cars are preferred, so be it, but forcing eradication of IC engines by government fiat is unappreciated, and there is the problem, if electric is so great, it will naturally win out, right?
     
  14. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 World Champ
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    Nothing you said negates anything I said. The degree of control for traction and braking will be way ahead of anything ICE's are capable of. Current EV's are model T's compared to what's coming. I would love to have pure market forces decide, but we have politicians. The low CG with battery packs is already being used to advantage, and they'll get lighter.
     
  15. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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    I hear you, but, "braking" itself actually has nothing to do with propulsion method. And currently it is a given that EVs are heavier than a comparable IC setup, the brakes on an EV will need to be larger in every dimension just to keep up with the abilities of a lighter weight vehicle. And, actually, aerodynamics can place a large role in braking ability (i.e. splitter+rear wing), however, none of that is unique or even related to what powers the vehicle.

    If you look at F1 vs Formula E to see current state of the art and it is decidedly in F1's favor by a large margin.
    https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/head-to-head-formula-1-vs-formula-e/
     
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  16. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 World Champ
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    Agreed, but things will progress. I'm actually pessimistic about any significant battery evolution in the near term. One thing that is possible, however, would be to allow the motors to reverse some to aid braking. Not sure if anyone has implemented that, though.

    Can the Formula E cars go an entire race distance yet? Aside from a couple of YouTube videos, I haven't watched it.
     
  17. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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    I cannot imagine reversing direction in the electric motors to help brake, that would mean the motors would be trying to spin the wheels in the opposite direction, there's no way I can think of where those gears would be able to sustain that level of inertial stress, it would tear them apart.

    However, many electric cars use regenerative braking so they would never spend even more energy attempting to reverse velocity:
    https://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDesignArticles/ArticleID/17625/How-Regenerative-Braking-Works.aspx

    Magnetic braking could help, but it costs energy (discussed in the link above)

    Formula E is still fumbling around for a solution:
    https://us.motorsport.com/formula-e/news/rules-energy-management-season-6/4474586/

    funny this:
    <...>This reduces the chances of a chaotic finale along the lines of what occurred in Mexico City earlier this season, where long-time race leader Pascal Wehrlein ran out of energy metres from the line, with FE understood to be keen that this becomes a regular feature of its races.<...>

    and from this:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/11/business/formula-e-racing-brooklyn.html
    how ridiculous:
    The cars can now reach 174 m.p.h. on straightaways and accelerate from zero to 60 in 2.8 seconds. As before, race officials enforce power and battery capacity limits by electronically monitoring the cars as they race, a kind of real-time steroid test for the competitors.

    which brings up another spectacular failure of electric cars, all of them can be remotely controlled, Tesla does it all the time
    I prefer a car that cannot be remotely controlled in any regard !
     
  18. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 World Champ
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    Hah! Yes, too funny about Formula E. Trying to turn liabilities into features.

    I meant just a relatively small amount of drag to assist braking, not full reverse power. Seems like it should be easy.
     
  19. RedTaxi

    RedTaxi Formula 3
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    We have industrial machines at work from the '80's that have braked electric motors. They send a reverse current shot into the motor to stop it instantly with no overrun. So it shouldn't be a problem in a modern car to do the braking at the motor(s).
     
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  20. 96redLT4

    96redLT4 Karting

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  21. LARRYH

    LARRYH F1 Veteran
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    I agree the GT3 touring is a wonderfully simple idea .. I think it would make a great special model and could be done if
    they wanted to .... I suspect when they build the SUV if they allow that to increase production numbers and help their corporate averages remain low maybe they will do something like this... I understand that Porsche plans to do something like this or at least this type of engine int he next GT3....so it can be done ....
     
  22. 96redLT4

    96redLT4 Karting

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