A question for flappy paddle enthusiasts

I will have a go with my experience: I race a sports race (Elan DP-02, IMSA). It has a sequential, no lift up-shift, and you gotta blip the down shifts. It's about as easy as a stick can be but it's not paddles. I am a hack. I have worked hard to learn to shift the car smoothly, but there is still no doubt I would love paddles because when you are racing and right on the ragged edge (and most of my edges are pretty ragged), moving your hand to the shifter and off the wheel is a pretty big deal. Like turn 12 at Atlanta where I short shift just a smidge because I want both hands on the wheel at the apex because the walls are really close.

So race cars have and need paddles. What they do is allow you full control of what I consider the essence of "driving" the car: brake, steering, and throttle. The other stuff - ABS, traction control, ESP, side slip control - I consider these to be nannies. But I don't consider a paddle transmission to be a nanny. It does protect you by keeping your hands on the wheel, keeps you from missing a shift, keeps you from accidentally pushing the clutch and not the brake, but it doesn't save you from spinning or otherwise ruining your day.

You can argue that nannies are for posers, but in reality we are ALL posers. No street car, no matter how focused, is a race car. When you go for a drive, you are entering a fantasy world, and you are pretending to be somewhere and someone you are not. You just need to know where and who you are pretending to be, so that you can best fulfill your dreams. Are you AJ Foyt at LeMans? Well then you need a manual, and a big American V8 sitting behind you (Ford GT recommended). You are Fangio in the '56 Mille Miglia? Well you need a Ferrari V12, a gated shifter, and some crappy back roads. You are Alonso flogging a poorly designed F1 car to within an inch of Domincali's career? You need a Speciale fitted with a Cappy exhaust.

Does Alonso get nannies? No. Does he need them? No. Do you and I? Yes. But the transmission is not one of them, and he gets to enjoy it as well. It fits the fantasy.

So the ultimate point is that you are talking about driving assist, and I don't think the transmission being paddle operated is part of that world. Now, your argument can easily extend from the fact that modern cars do have more and more sophisticated nannies on board (side slip control is probably one of the best examples). Some of the GT manufacturers (Bentley) have GPS interaction that selects the gear based on the upcoming turn. That's a different story....

 

I'm curious about the shifting strategy.

With paddle shifters, you have to shift sequentially. This is not a factor with acceleration, but deceleration for sure. You can't go direct from 5th to 2nd gear in a tight turn; you have to do 5-4-3-2. I suppose you could go to Neutral, Upshift and hope the computer picks the right gear, but I doubt anyone uses this method.

With MT, you can go directly to any gear, without thinking about multiple down-shifts.

I was curious about those who track their cars with paddle shifters and what strategy they use when approaching a turn, requiring substantial decrease in speed, verses what they would have done with MT.

Thanks.

 

I dont mind the nannies, its how they interact that si the question. ESP that allows a 30% slip is fine, it limits the accident but doies not take away from the fun like the earleir traction control systems.


Paddles if I am racing, well inr acing faster is betetr. Tracking is a different stroy, and ont he streets speeds are soemwhere between being stuck isn traffic(paddle) and all out pace(paddle)

By your logic a paddle is a driver assisit, anmd I agree its a greata sisssit in traffic and very fuintcionla one ina race. But the point being made by myself is thta in most other conditions it detracts from why we in teroy buy these cars which is joy of driving and application of skill.

In any event ferrari appears to be comming out with a newer lighter stick car below the 458. It probably wont sell int he same numbers as the 458 but wills erve that niche.

 

Exactly.

 

Not sure "easier" was ever part of the argument. There are some who prefer that cars are more difficult to drive, and are willing to sacrifice speed in order to preserve that difficulty.

From my perspective, the art of driving is a lot broader than working a manual clutch pedal. I don't think you can really explore all that a modern high end sports car has to offer if you're using gearbox technology from the 1950s. J Salmon's post above captures the whole issue perfectly.

 

Every modern change has led to a reduction in the required interaction from the human occupant, the trend is continuing. No more hand crank starts, Power brakes (less foot power required), etc...
Some change, or removal of the visceral connection is good, I don't want to put the started and crank. However some of the experience than goes away. I posted this in the other thread just now, but truly, if I could, I would want a true manual (with a clutch), that could also be driven with paddles. Wife likes paddles, I like the manual, don't have room (or money) to have every option.

 

Posted a reply in the other thread, but IMHO part of the appeal of the DCT manual is that it can be set to simulate an automatic for those occasions when you (or the wife) wants one, or left in manual mode if you want to shift.

Given all the crappy attempts in the past to do this (Sportomatic, Valeo, Tiptronic, etc.), DCT manuals are one of the best upgrades in years.

 

Very well stated!

 

The reason they pur manuals down is in one word, Insecurity

 

?

 

I prefer a manual when it's not a big speed detriment. In any modern Ferrari, it is a big speed detriment because they accelerate (and decelerate) so quickly that you will lose time both in shifting and in loss of control by taking your hand off of the wheel. In an F12 or speciale, the shifts come so quickly that you would spend most of your time with only one hand on the wheel reducing both car control and the speed of the car due to time lost shifting. The cross over point seems to be about the 360CS/430 to where a manual trans will actually reduce the engagement instead of enhance it.

If you want a manual trans, buy one of the thousands of used Ferraris with one. I really don't get the debate and the manufacturers found out that nobody bought the manuals anymore, anyway. If people still wanted manuals in new Ferraris (that could afford them), Ferrari would make them.

 

How many 430 manuals did they sell? How many California manuals? We're not talking about Porsche's, but I'm betting they saw the same thing I do, that the manual was starting to take away from the experience due to the speeds rather than enhance it.

 

Want old technology like distributers etc. then just buy an old car.

 

You didn't even read the OP's post.

 

I wouldn't get those options in a Ferrari, or any other sports car, because they take the fun out of driving. However, they are fine in a dd.

 

You are describing a preliminary stage for traveling by train or the use of a roller coaster. No, thank you. For me your scenario has nothing to do with driving a car.

What I like to use are SUPPORT systems like stability control, high performance antilock braking system, electronic brake force distribution, F1 traction control (incl. launch control), side slip angle control, electronic differential, magnetorheological suspension control with frequency analysis system and twin solenoids - in a Ferrari available "for free" today!
(I guess I see your point, we are not far away from your scenario)

 

When I was waiting for an allocation for a 430 I was given several slots for an F!. The 6 speed took a lot longer to get. I dont buy the argument that they stopped building them because they weren't selling. Ferrari decided to limit the production of 6 speeds

 

I do not believe DCT drives itself...especially in Race Manual mode. You have to up shift before 9k RPMs or bounce off the rev limiter. Very engaging for me as a driver.

Our 3 other cars are MTs. 458 spider is the most fun for me to drive.

Btw DTCs are said to last for the life of the car. Not so with a MT for sure.

Best

 

"Here's my question: If the next option Ferrari brings out is lightning fast shifts, auto braking and auto throttle where you basically set the switch to the speed you want to do and the electronics will do it all for you, faster than a human could possibly do it, would you take this option?"
Im open to all new technology options...but i want the ability to shut them off if i choose..If I dont want GPS engagement, I want to shut it off, the same goes for all the others..I dont find the newer Ferrari's providing the same visceral driving experience i get from Lamborghini, Ferrari is much more refined..its all subjective..just my 2c