...a real classic Maserati!

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by wbaeumer, Feb 2, 2008.

  1. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn Moderator
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    #926 Boudewijn, Mar 1, 2013
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  2. ColdWater

    ColdWater Formula Junior
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    #927 ColdWater, Mar 1, 2013
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  3. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Yes, ...and much more advanced than any Ferrari of that period!
     
  4. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Hi Don,

    ....well, the beared Maserati-GOD from Italy recognised the resto as being perfect!
    I saw the car when it was in Italy pre-resto - and believe me, it needed a resto.

    The work was done by the mechanic of the then-time owner.

    You mention that "...the turn-signal switch handle is not correct, although it has been with the car for many years." but you also stated that to your "... knowledge, #078 was until several years ago the best preserved original example of an A6 1500".

    According to my info, the original material for the seats could not be found anymore. Considering this, I find the material they chose, suites the car very well regarding the 40s aura.
     
  5. ColdWater

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    Well, we will disagree then about the "'40s aura" of corduroy in red, rather than the original tan. I have never seen another Italian car of the era with red corduroy.

    While it is true that the original material, with 10 wales per inch, is no longer made, material of about 8-9 wales per inch in the proper original color is currently available. So too is proper surface-dyed vegetable-tanned leather, with the correct texture and in any color.

    I have already posted the pre-restoration photos I have, and indeed the car was far enough gone to require a full restoration. I don't think it had run in fifty years. But it nevertheless could have been a great reference. Do any good pre-restoration photos exist ?
     
  6. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    #931 wbaeumer, Mar 1, 2013
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    Don,
    I have tons of pre-resto photos of #078. Here are some that clearly show that it was time to do something...
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  8. ColdWater

    ColdWater Formula Junior
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    Wonderful patina . . .

    I've sent you an e-mail.
     
  9. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Don,
    the distance between a wonderful patina and bad condition is very small. Here it moved to the latter....
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Maserati chassis typically were.

    A 300S chassis makes a Ferrari comp car of the period look like a buck board.
     
  11. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Not in this case IMO ... that's not patina that is a car needing some love. Maybe if it had a massive, and I mean massive, clean and detail it could be called patina ... but that massive detail would be so close to a restoration anyway.
    Pete
     
  12. ColdWater

    ColdWater Formula Junior
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    My humor about patina was probably too dry. I don't think this car had moved for fifty years, but at least it wasn't left out in a field. Nevertheless, it is among the few that offer indications of authenticity in many details.
     
  13. ColdWater

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    Coil springs all around provide ride and handling geometry much superior to the leaf-sprung Ferraris of the era. Damping is the only weakness.

    The shocks in the A6 1500 are rather unique in that they are American Houdaille, rather than European. These were originally used on massive American cars of the 1930s, e.g. Lincoln, and then used for military trucks. During the war they were strengthened for this purpose, and it is the modified units that are used on the A6 1500. I surmise that the Orsis had some connections in US Army motor pools !
     
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  15. iicarJohn

    iicarJohn Karting

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    Many Italian cars used "Houdaille" dampers made under license in Torino by the company named above. These included many Ferrari and Maserati of the 1940's and 1950's. Many of the dampers have individual serial numbers preceded by "CCT". While it is possible that a car or two might have received military USA-made versions of these style dampers early in their histories, it is a bit unlikely that they were fitted when new. Not impossible, but unlikely.
     
  16. ColdWater

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    #939 ColdWater, Mar 2, 2013
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    Hi John,

    Bodies of the European Houdailles are cylindrical, the American are domed. The attached photos show the difference: French and Italian units versus American. Period photos of A6 1500s show the domed type, and many cars retain their original units (see my post #923 above). Indeed, at page 20 the A6 1500 owners manual specifically refers to ammortizzatori idraulici tipo Houdaille americani. Teardown reveals that the original units are indeed American units with the wartime strengthening for military use. The source of these insights is Lazar at Apple Hydraulics, Calverton NY, who has seen more than a few Houdaille shocks. I'd be happy to provide his contact details by PM.

    Don
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  17. iicarJohn

    iicarJohn Karting

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    #940 iicarJohn, Mar 3, 2013
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    Yes, there are different styles of damper bodies. The methods of production varied as did the tooling, both of which changed in different places at different times. The critical language that you cite progresses into the 1951 A6G/2000 and A6GCS documentation as well. There are also photos in some manuals that show us the style of damper body that you wish to imply is incorrect by implying that only the one style is correct. The language seems quite specific in saying "tipo Houdaille americani" but is actually a bit generic (and where I think the important technical point is that the dampers are adjustable) but this language does not specifically tell us that the source is or was American. I have seen (and occasionally made note of) the specific parts used in a great many cars. There are variations from time to time, but in general, the Italian builders tended to go quite often with Italian suppliers whenever possible. I can document quite a number of these sorts of cars that seemingly have their original "Corte e Cosso" dampers still fitted. Maybe your car has a left-over earlier style and you are assuming that all others had the same? You do not actually tell us that your damper is not CCT in origin. There are variations in how the dampers are marked and numbered. I'll try to locate some photos of some variations. Not all of those are scanned into the computer so this may take some time
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  18. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    ++++1!!! :) Post this comment in the Ferrari section...:)! HAH!
     
  19. PG1964

    PG1964 Formula Junior

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    Just to remember to the US users that, before the WWII, the Stabilimenti Farina was the main producer in Turin of dampers and brakes, under license or patented, for cars, trucks and airplanes. Because the 1943 allied bombings, Giovanni Farina lost his main factory (he had 1200 workers here).
     
  20. ColdWater

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    #943 ColdWater, Mar 3, 2013
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    The statements I made are considerably more limited and circumspect than you suggest. It is well known that inconsistency is the rule in Italian cars, particularly in the early postwar era.

    Last month I had the opportunity to compare an A6G Zagato chassis side-by-side with the A6 1500 with which I am most familiar. Almost nothing is carried over - except apparently some language in the factory documentation. The Zagato had European Houdailles, as are shown in the illustration you provide.

    I did specifically say in my last post that the dampers I had rebuilt, which on the preponderance of evidence appear to be original to the car, were conclusively identified by a recognized damper authority as being the modified American versions used on military trucks. I again invite you to discuss that with him if you take issue.

    Perhaps some have more information about A6 1500s than I do, but among what I have, there is complete consistency in the presence of the domed-type Houdailles (which have been identified to me by the aforementioned expert as being American) - except for a car modified for competition with tubular shocks. For example, here is a photo of #053, one of the earliest cars.

    From this I think it is reasonable to say that A6 1500s (only) were generally fitted with American Houdaille units. That is all I said or implied, and I think it is an interesting observation to share on this forum.

    If credible evidence to the contrary is offered, I would be very pleased to learn something and reconsider. But examination of cars years after their construction needs to be assessed critically. I have been informed that the mounting points are different for American vs. European Houdailles, so if the latter are found on an A6 1500 the chassis should also be evaluated for the presence of modification, conceivably after the local stock of American replacement units was exhausted.
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  21. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Are you able to blow up the cross section of the engine. I'm trying to work out the camshaft and rocker arrangement :).

    Thanks, if possible.
    Pete
     
  22. ColdWater

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    #945 ColdWater, Mar 3, 2013
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  23. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Thanks, and wow!. And I thought Alfa Romeo were bloody clever with their 2 valve head for the GTV6 engine with their operation of the exhaust valve ... but the concept is the same as this old Maserati!

    Amazing. Nothing new under the sun!, and a very modern looking camshaft and rocker arrangement.


    Why did Maserati return to leaf sprung rear suspension with the 3500? ... such a backward step.
    Pete
     
  24. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    As I mentioned before - all V12 engines from Ferrari look old compared to this much advanced design from Maserati. Wonderful machinery!!
     
  25. ColdWater

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    Ferrari engines of the era use 'mousetrap' valve springs, which can be a serious maintenance headache. Sacrificing authenticity, many have been converted to coils. The A6 runs like a clock.
     
  26. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Who designed the A6 Maserati engine please?

    Columbo designed the 250F engine and also the Ferrari v12 with the mousetrap valve springs ...
    Pete
     
  27. ColdWater

    ColdWater Formula Junior
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    My understanding is that Ernesto Maserati planned the adaptation of the 6CM competition engine during the war. But it seems that Maserati was more collaborative and less hierarchical than Ferrari, and certainly less is known.
     

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