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A Series I 330 about to sell

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Davidindallas, Nov 23, 2003.

  1. Davidindallas

    Davidindallas Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    343
    It looks like somebody's actually bursting the reserve price on a white 330 2 plus 2 series 1 car in way upstate NY. The pictures look good but it's one of those unclear who owns it listings. Also, upstate NY raises rust questions. Someone's braver than I am
     
  2. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
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    It looks like a really nice car but I'm like you, buying on ebay with no inspection would take lots of courage. However, if I were still in the market for a 330, this one looks nice enough to fly out and see pre bidding. It makes me wish I had the space and funds to keep two going!
     
  3. Tony Fuisz

    Tony Fuisz Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
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    It certainly looks nice...hopefully we will here more about the car from the new owner if the sale completes. Enjoyed driving mine around VA this weekend. Great cars
     
  4. Davidindallas

    Davidindallas Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
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    You guys are making me jealous. I've been wanting one of these vintage 12s for a while. Haven't taken the leap yet.
     
  5. andrew911

    andrew911 F1 Rookie
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    Sep 8, 2003
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    See it went for $31,050...how does that compare to the market? (I'm unfamiliar)...Looks like it's a nice car, as long as no gremlens...description is mysteriously vauge as to how long the car has been driven since sitting for 12 years...did they drive it for 5 years since it was stored & all is fine, or start it up 2 weeks ago after its 12 year rest- "quick no promlems- turn it off" & list as "no problems besides small oil leak"?

    Looks like a nice driver with some "patina", so if this were my car I would have no problems enjoying it the way it was meant to be- without constantly worrying about a small scratch or wear mark in the well broken in leather. That price is nice, unless $10,000 of work looms around the corner....
     
  6. sranderson

    sranderson Formula Junior

    Nov 15, 2003
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    SRA
    I believe the owner/car is from Cleveland, Ohio. I saw this car at Hershey this past year. Asking price was @$35k. Paint was fair, interior original and usable, mechanically looked and sounded good. The new owner didn't get hurt.

    SRA
     
  7. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
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    $ 10K in work could easily be around the corner....
     
  8. Dave330gtc

    Dave330gtc Formula Junior

    Mar 12, 2002
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    David Smith
    I thought that this 330 was a good looking car also. I would also anticipate spending upwards of $10,000 for miscellaneous repairs and improvements. You still will have a nice car and not be in way over your head.
     
  9. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
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    And, when you factor in your "acquisition costs" such as prepurchase inspection, transport, local or state sales taxes (6.25% in Texas, which is cheaper than some places), titling, license, compliance with state vehicle safety/inspection requirements (new inertia reel seatbelts, which I would have done anyway), immediately needed minor repairs, and the time spent away from $ producing work (at least in my profession) to do what is needed to get it into your garage, add 2 to 5 grand more to the previous 10.

    The cost of a well reconditioned - not restored - 330 2+2 can easily equal the drive away cash cost of a new BMW 330 coupe.
     
  10. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    A much better buy than the BMW. this was a great deal for 30k. Even if the price runs up to 40K, still a very good deal. a 12 cylinder in good running condition, that 10 years from now will still bring 70 to 150% of what you paid for it. Great deal. And he gets to DRIVE IT.

    Art
     
  11. Tony Fuisz

    Tony Fuisz Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
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    Tony Fuisz
    With mine, new seat belts, new master cylinder and boosters (not picked up by the PPI), leaking fuel filter and new tie rods in the first 6-8 months of ownership (plus cost of shipping it) all added up to 8-9 K. (I'm not actually going to add it up for my own well-being).
    But as mentioned above, I know I'm more likely to get more money out of it than if I bought a BMW new. Historic plates in maryland translate to low registration cost and $80/year agreed value coverage on insurance.
    Its a hobby or a disease, but as long as I can get most of the money out again to buy the next one (testarossa or daytona?) its OK.
     
  12. Davidindallas

    Davidindallas Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    343
    Damn. I should have started this thread a couple of days earlier. Had I known someone had seen the car in the flesh, I probably would have jumped in on that bidding. Who knows, maybe te deal will fall through. There are flakes on both ends of ebay.
     
  13. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
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    There will always be another one. The problem with the '60s 2+2 models is that they are kind of the bottom rung of vintage v12 ownership and many have suffered through multiple owners and indifferent maintenance, abuse, and neglect. I was surprised when looking for a 330 that there were very nice cars with a lost ownership trail. Mine has a reasonably complete ownership history but had basically sat in a garage for 20 years with very little use. You mentioned leaks on the ebay car - mine sprung several after it got here and I drove it regularly. Twenty inactive years in a northern California garage and then a sudden move to Texas in mid spring can make things happen over the next few months. I really don't know what exact point I'm trying to make here other than every car is going to have its own set of problems and its a roll of the dice no matter how careful you are. My advice is to have an additional 50% of the basic purchase price in available funds.
     
  14. Glassman

    Glassman F1 World Champ
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    Apr 23, 2002
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    Who cares about 10,000 worth of potential problems when the car in its present condition is worth the purchase price in parts!
     
  15. icars

    icars Formula Junior

    Mar 28, 2002
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    Rodney Haas
    I would always figure a minimum of 10K on a going on 40 year old car. I had my PPI done on the 365 by supposedly the top Ferrari mechanic in South Florida. When the car got to Dallas, my mechanic found another 8K worth of issue within 10 minutes of going of the car with a flashlight in my garage. I called him after the car arrived and had what sounded like and arcing noise.

    The short of the story is the "new rust car" had some issue now fixed, alternator issue (the arcing noise mostly) 30 year old plug wires also arcing. On the other hand several of the items the mechanic in South Florida though were wrong were not.

    About 8K worth of mechanicals later the car is in great shape.

    The moral of this story is the next purchase I fly my mechanic out to look @ the car personally, it would have been much less expensive in the long run ;).
     
  16. Davidindallas

    Davidindallas Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    343
    I'm feeling somewhat emboldened by the fact that at least two other guys here in Dallas have taken the plunge on 60's v12s. I looked at a couple of 330s and 365s out in california earlier this year and have been swinging between them and a newish 456. One of the cars I looked at appeared to be a very original 300 gtc 2 seater. It needed paint and some minor dents pulled, the interior looked great, the odo. showed 66k kilometers and the trunk was clean but smelled like stale gas. It was cheap--low 70s as I recall. Would you think your 10k rule would apply here (obviously subtracting the paint work). The way I see it there aren't many 2 seat 60s v12s. Spend 10k on the paint (and dents) and the other obligatory 10 on the surprise mechanicals that go with a car of this vintage and maybe I can say goodbye to the depreciation fears on my 456?
     
  17. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
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    You are going to run into the same general difficulties with the 330/365 GTC's - they're an old Ferrari from the same era with some major suspension and drivetrain differences but in essence the same as the 2+2 models. You'd better think in terms of your $70K 330 0r 365 GTC as a $100K investment from the get go - it will save you a lot of emotional pain later. If I had your choice to make and could make it work financially, I wouldn't even be thinking about the 456.

    Owning a vintage Ferrari here in Dallas has not been a problem. Finding it was the problem! Other than in the private collections of the very wealthy, there aren't many around. All my looking, after making that discovery, was done out of state, over the internet & phone. The good news is that there are several highly qualified private repair facilities here in Dallas, and probably more that I don't know about. Labor rates run about the same as for BMW, Jag, etc., and parts - some very, very expensive and some a lot cheaper than you would guess. As we would say back in the sixties, the ownership experience for one of these cars is a real trip.
     
  18. icars

    icars Formula Junior

    Mar 28, 2002
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    Rodney Haas
    Generally maintenance is not a problem. There are several great mechanics where in town. You can easily get a vintage Ferrari worked on for less than a BMW or Mercedes, for that matter less than a new Ford.

    The only issue you can run into is having to schedule the car to go in. My mechanic Shadetree Enginetrics for instance usually books a few weeks in advance depending on what you need done. However you also get somebody who pretty much believes he owns the car and you get to drive it. Many times things come back repaired and not charged for that I didn't mention.

    The largest cost on a vintage car (other than major mechanicals that hopefully the PPI finds) is cosmetic work.

    Body work depending on what you need. Jano who is one of the members here does nice work and reasonable for club members.

    Leather work my Jaguar friends pointed me to ASM off Royal & 35 a couple of years ago. She did the entire interior of the Indy for 5K. She did the two front seats of the 365 and the elbow rest for $1100.
     
  19. Dave330gtc

    Dave330gtc Formula Junior

    Mar 12, 2002
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    David Smith
    I feel that the 330 GTC is a $100,000 car. A show car would be $140,000 - $150,000. If you a buy one in the $70,000 - $80,000 range be prepared to spend up to the level of how perfect you want it. Keep in mind that is nearly impossible to decide on where to stop on the restoration. Some items will have to be done while you have things apart. Other items you will want to do because the car is apart. No matter how nice the car you buy is, there will be surprises. The more items you inspect and repair, the more confidence you will have in the car, and the more enjoyment you will get out of it.
     
  20. Davidindallas

    Davidindallas Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    343
    I'm cuious why jas3 would rule out the 456 so quickly. It's got performance galore. I would agree the depreciation curve is unknowable, but other than that it's a really amazing drive. I've looked at many 330s and 365s (never driven one). I can see they will likely never go down but I assume, as you all seem to confrim that the first 6 months or so of ownership would consist of visits to the shop to check on progress and spending another 25k that I would hope to eventually get back out (hopefully not for a long time though). Are these cars just more visceral? I have a 328 that I love but I'd really like a V12 that I could drive from time to time.
     
  21. Dave330gtc

    Dave330gtc Formula Junior

    Mar 12, 2002
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    The newer cars are great cars and very easy to drive, but there is something very special about a vintage V-12. It is more than just the car itself; it is being part of the era that the car was produced in. The 50s and 60s very fantastic times for the Ferrari factory. I feel that I can be part of that history by owning one of these older cars.
     
  22. Tony Fuisz

    Tony Fuisz Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
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    I don't think the 456 and a 330 are really comparable...the 330 drives like an old car, a very nice, great sounding old car, but still old. A 456 is much closer to a modern experience.
    If you want AC, power steering, etc., by all means get the newer one. Some 330s and 365s have that stuff that works, but having a 60's ferrari means driving a car that wasn't really made for today's world. Mine has no electric fan...stays cool and runs great at any ambient temp while moving but rapidly gets hot standing still. Enzo suggested stopping for an espresso if the traffic was bad-no excuses.
    The flip side of an older car is there is less to go wrong, and most of what does go wrong is easily understood.
    If driving an old car means putting up with a cassette player instead of a CD, get the 456. It will probably continue to depreciate, but probably will always be more expensive than a 330.
     
  23. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
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    I'm a little middle aged and for me Ferrari has always meant V12. Now that I own a V12 and am happy with my decision to buy and recondition it, I certainly wouldn't mind stepping into a 328, 348, or similar in the future. I've had my share of hot rods and don't care about brutal acceleration or ultra high speed performance. The overall driving experience, the engine sounds, and appreciation of the 330's design qualities are enough for me.

    I feel that the ordinary production vintage V12 models will do better in the future than the post 1975 mass production Ferraris, just because of the very limited and dwindling number of cars available, but wouldn't venture a guess as to any particular model's price performance. I do think in general that a GTC would be a better move than a newer car, as long as you find a good car to begin with and have honestly confronted the $$ realities before you make the jump.

    Keep us posted here - we need more vintage V12's in Dallas!
     
  24. Davidindallas

    Davidindallas Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    343
    Got it. I too really love to see an older purely machanical car (pre-fuel inj., pre-OBD, chips, etc..). I've never drivien one with the exception of a fairly rough 365GTC4. It sounded pretty cool but Dick Merritt at the DOT talked me out of it. Too expensive to keep up versus the earlier cars. I have been dying for a V12 for more than a year now. I have no excuse not to buy one so soon, soon!!
     
  25. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
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    Mechanics at the shop where I take my car told me the same thing -later 12 cyl. 4-cam cars like the 365 2+2, 365 GTC4, 400 series, are more complex, crowded, and expensive to keep going compared to the earlier 2 cam 12's.

    The starter in my 330 burned up.The total for flatbed to the shop and remove/rebuild/reinstall was about $1,000.00.
     

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