A Short Global Survey of Dino Owners | FerrariChat

A Short Global Survey of Dino Owners

Discussion in '206/246' started by f328nvl, Nov 25, 2006.

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  1. f328nvl

    f328nvl Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2004
    851
    Herts
    Full Name:
    John
    Many members here have kindly been assisting me some academic research and I am (with Rob Lay's agreement) asking Dino owners (and former owners) to complete a short survey regarding their 246. There are just 10 questions and it will take a couple of minutes.

    The survey is here:

    http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=11102936170

    There are no commercial interests involved at all and I have no connection to the motor trade, I'm an academic and a corporate financier.

    Sharing the Results and Confidentiality:

    I'm happy to share the aggregated results if anybody is interested (It is totally anonomous on the part of respondents and no data is captured about the individual)

    Background:

    The research is about a Nobel prize winning paper entitled "The Market for Lemons" by George Akerlof of University of Califiornia. The research revolves around the trading of assets that have uncertain quality prior to purchase. (e.g Old Ferraris) Background is here:

    http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/articles/akerlof/index.html

    If you are interested, I'm happy to discuss what we are doing.

    Thanks

    John Gilligan
     
  2. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2003
    43,716
    26.806311,-81.755805
    Full Name:
    Dave M.
    John.

    Question.

    Do you want to know the year of manufacture with question 6, or do you really want to know the year it was first sold.

    Reason I ask. My car was mfg in 1972, didn't leave the lot for the 1st time until 1974. See the problem? I answered '74, as that is how the question is phrased, but I'm not sure that's what you're huntiing for.

     
  3. f328nvl

    f328nvl Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2004
    851
    Herts
    Full Name:
    John
    Thanks for completing the survey.

    I did think about which version to ask and plumped for year first sold because it's on the registration document (in the UK, not sure about other countries) and therefore I'd get fewer "Don't Knows".

    jg
     
  4. yasmin

    yasmin Formula Junior

    John, where is St Albans ?????
     
  5. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2003
    43,716
    26.806311,-81.755805
    Full Name:
    Dave M.
    #5 dm_n_stuff, Nov 25, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Gotcha.

    could ask what the MFG date is on the plate on the driver's door sill.
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  6. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,660
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Shawn
    crap, i took the survey after just reading this, my car was first sold in 72, not 74. could you please ammend my survey?

    thanks
     
  7. Crawler

    Crawler F1 Veteran

    Jul 2, 2006
    5,018
    I didn't know how to answer some of the questions (dealer representation, actual condition of the car, etc.) as our car was purchased new by my father in 1974. It seems the survey focuses on people who bought their cars used (which is obviously the vast majority of owners ay this point).
     
  8. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
    9,294
    CHNDLR
    Full Name:
    Scott
    There is one in Vermont and I used to live near it, although the name may not be unique...
     
  9. f328nvl

    f328nvl Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2004
    851
    Herts
    Full Name:
    John
    Site of first Christain Martyrdom in Britain - or 20 miles North of London by junction 8 on the M1 if you prefer!

    thanks for all your help
     
  10. f328nvl

    f328nvl Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2004
    851
    Herts
    Full Name:
    John
    Q:Compared with your expectation prior to purchasing the car WHEN THE VENDOR DELIVERED your (latest) 246 Dino Was the quality of the car

    Much Better Than Expected -0%
    Somewhat Better than Expected - 12%
    As Expected - 76%
    Somewhat Worse than Expected -12%
    Much Worse Than Expected -0%

    thank you to all who have completed the survey so far.

    For those who wish to, it is here:

    http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=11102936170
     
  11. celestialcoop

    celestialcoop Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 20, 2006
    715
    Full Name:
    Coop
    'not so easy on Euro cars...no data plate!
     
  12. f328nvl

    f328nvl Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2004
    851
    Herts
    Full Name:
    John
    Given the number of 1980s restorations, you can never rely on any plate being where you'd expect it to be.
     
  13. f328nvl

    f328nvl Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2004
    851
    Herts
    Full Name:
    John
    Q4:

    Concours 6%
    Very Good 39%
    Good 29%
    Average 13%
    Below Average 0%
    Poor 6%
    Restoration Project 6%

    thank you to all who have completed the survey so far.

    For those who wish to, it is here:

    http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=11102936170
     
  14. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
    Owner Rossa Subscribed


    GEEZ, I haven't visited this site for a while and am disappointed how low it appears to have sunk. <Tongue firmly in cheek>.

    Anyway -

    Technically, the "prize" in economics isn't a "Nobel Prize." The true Nobels were established in 1901 in physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine, literature and for peace. The prize in economics is "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences IN MEMORY OF ALFRED NOBEL," and was first awarded in 1969.

    Oh, and if you ever hear someone claiming that somebody was nominated for a Nobel Prize, that is hogwash. Nominations are not publicly revealed (hey - this ain't the Oscars). There have been a very few limited exceptions, such as in the case of John Nash, where it was known that he was likely going to be awarded the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences "IN MEMORY OF ALFRED NOBEL," but there was concern about his mental condition so investigators/researchers contacted those who knew him about his condition before the prize was awarded.

    One more thing - "papers" aren't awarded prizes, but the author(s) are for their achievements in the field.

    Mark
     
  15. f328nvl

    f328nvl Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2004
    851
    Herts
    Full Name:
    John
    Mark makes three points:
    1. Economics is not a Nobel prize;
    2. There are no nominations;
    3. Papers don't win prizes, authors do.

    Dealing with each:

    The first point is technically correct, but is pedantic. The Economics prize is awarded at the same ceremony and uses the name Nobel with permission. The link takes you to the Nobel.se website for instance. So, the point is correct, but so what?

    The Second point is not correct, but again it doesn't matter. In fact anyone can nominate anybody they like for a Nobel prize. The actual nomination process is here:

    http://nobelprize.org/nomination/

    The academy seeks nomintaions and also accepts nominations from anybody. It does not of course have to act on any of them. So get your mates to nominate you for a Nobel and stick it on your CV. It is meaningless as Mark says, but not for the reason he gives.

    The third point is semantic: This is Akerlof's own quote from the link I gave:

    "I wrote “The Market for ‘Lemons,’” (a 13-page paper for which I was awarded the Prize in Economics) during my first year as assistant professor at Berkeley, in 1966-67"

    Clearly he won the prize, not the paper. Equally clearly he won it for a contribution that is entirely contained in a single paper.

    To be clear, you do not win for a lifetime of achievement, you win for a specific contribution to a body of knowledge (often, but not always, contained in a single paper)- that's why you can win twice!

    So, again correct, but not making any particularly important distinctions.

    Anyway, thanks for replying, it keeps the thread alive and might get a few more responses to the survey itself!

    jg
     
  16. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
    Owner Rossa Subscribed


    Umm, well YOU have restated my points to suit yourself, but -

    My Point 1 is correct. Now, "PEDANTIC?" I don't think so. Heck, you are the one trying to use us as Guinea pigs for your research. If you were at a university in the U.S. that received Federal funds, you'd likely need to get your survey cleared by your university's Human Subjects Review Committee (or equivalent - and yes, that rule applies to the social sciences) regardless of whether you were a student or a professor since you are collecting some personal data (VIN and registration numbers, for example). What, specifically, do you intend to do with the results of your survey? I couldn't find you listed on the faculty roster for Cranfield University, UK. Are you on the faculty? If so, what department? Is there a paper in the works? To be submitted where?

    My Point 2 is correct - your claim that "anyone can nominate" is NOT correct - read the rules. Nominations are not publicly revealed, except in extremely rare instances (see the Nobel Foundation rules - to paraphrase: "nominations not released publicly or privately for 50 years.") It is still hogwash (meaning "meaningless") for anyone to claim that someone has been nominated since there is no way to officially verify a nomination. Otherwise, Larouche would likely be the one individual most nominated (by his mother) for an economics, physics, and peace prize, AND also the biggest loser. When has anyone heard of "this year's group of losers" for a Nobel Prize? IT IS MEANINGLESS FOR ANYONE TO CLAIM THAT SOMEONE WAS NOMINATED (at least with regard to someone still alive), AND IT IS MEANINGLESS FOR THE REASONS I STATED. (Did I really use the phrase "lifetime achievement?" [No, I didn't.] Gosh, that sure sounds like some kind of Oscar talk.)

    My Point 3 is correct. Now, with respect to winning multiple times - only a handful individuals (excluding organizations like the Red Cross) have won more than once - John Bardeen (Physics 1956, 1972), Marie Curie (Chemistry 1911, Physics 1903), Linus Pauling (Chemistry 1954, Peace 1962) Frederick Sanger (Chemistry 1958, 1980).

    Finally, with respect to Akerlof's 13 page paper - WHOPEE - a marginally interesting footnote in economics . . . OF COURSE ALL PARTICIPANTS (OR PARTICIPANTS AT THE MARGIN) IN EVERY MARKET ARE ACTING ON IMPERFECT INFORMATION.

    Of course, this is again all tongue in cheek - which you apparently missed the first time around.

    Mark Nerheim
     
  17. f328nvl

    f328nvl Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2004
    851
    Herts
    Full Name:
    John
    Mark

    I understand your tongue is in your cheek, so is mine, but you have raised two issues that I ought to address.

    The substantive things you have raised are:
    1. Ethical approval for research;
    2. I am not on the academic staff of Cranfield.

    The former is an internal matter that the University takes very seriously. The policy summary is here:

    http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/ethics.htm

    As a matter of clarification, I am not, as I have made clear, collecting any information on individuals at all. The reason to request (but not require) VIN/Registration, which are data about cars not people and cannot as far as I'm aware be tracked to any individual, is to reduce the probability of getting false responses.

    You may be interested that the majority of people who have kindly replied to date have left an e-mail address and asked me to send the summary results, which of course I am happy to do.

    The second point reflects the fact that, as I have said, I am a doctoral student at Cranfield, not a member of the faculty. You will find me listed here (or type "Gilligan" in the site search engine):

    http://www.som.cranfield.ac.uk/som/dba/biogs/index.asp

    My faculty supervisor is Prof Sudi Sudarsanam.

    http://www.som.cranfield.ac.uk/som/faculty/Showfaculty.asp?link=173

    As an aside I do have a special academic appointment at the University of Nottingham, see below, but this research is not being undertaken through Nottingham.

    http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/business/Special29.html

    Hopefully this clarifies all the issues you've raised about identity and research method.

    As I said at the top, I requested permission from Rob Lay to undertake this and it is totally voluntary, so if you think it's either intrusive or indeed a waste of time, that's your right and you can ignore it. To those who do not think that, I again express my thanks for their help.

    John Gilligan
     
  18. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2003
    43,716
    26.806311,-81.755805
    Full Name:
    Dave M.
    Not to hijack the thread a bit, but..

    Could you guys knock it off??? Just what we car guys need is a couple of eggheads arguing semantics about Nobel Prizes in the Dino section.

    Seems to me John is doing a pretty straight forward presentation here of what he's trying to do, and why he's trying to do it.

    That he may be somewhat imprecise is a relatively minor infraction on a FerrariChat scale of 1 to 10, don't you think? It's not like he's giving us the wrong torque settings or suggesting we use synthetic oil in our cars, God forbid.

    And John, ownership of many of these cars can be traced easily through the dino registry, which is available online.

    Now please play nice. :D

    DM
     
  19. f328nvl

    f328nvl Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2004
    851
    Herts
    Full Name:
    John
  20. f328nvl

    f328nvl Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2004
    851
    Herts
    Full Name:
    John
    Sorry to keep bumping it up, but just a couple more and I'll have 50 responses from around the world, so if any of you who haven't filled it in could please give 2 minutes of your time?

    http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=11102936170

    I'll put up a summary early next week.

    jg
     
  21. ghenne

    ghenne Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2004
    456
    Toronto, Canada
    Hi John,

    I just got your survey. While I think the underlying theory is correct, I can understand why your results do not reflect it.

    The people in this group are far more aware than average about Dinos. They're real fans of the car, and are the type to do research and additional reading about it it. If they weren't, they would probably be bored of this group (in fact, they probably would even think to look for it.)

    It might be interesting to find out what percent thought they actually knew more about the car than the vendor when they bought it. (I certainly did.)
    The assumption that the vendor is better informed than the buyer is a key prerequisite to the theory.
     
  22. f328nvl

    f328nvl Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2004
    851
    Herts
    Full Name:
    John
    I understand the observation and to agree with you to some extent, however, the data wasn't only collected via FChat, there were seperate sources where this might not be the case.

    Having said that the general point that people who buy 30+ year old Ferraris are probably more informed and/or passionate about the car is a good one and may begin to explain the data.

    jg
     
  23. f328nvl

    f328nvl Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2004
    851
    Herts
    Full Name:
    John
    #23 f328nvl, Dec 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have been asked by a couple of people who couldn't complete the survey (as they weren't owners of 246s) what the results were.

    Appended is the data to date and some of the analysis. As the project is ongoing, I won't include the commentary that I sent to the participants at this point.

    It might be interesting to see what others make of it without knowing what we were looking for!

    jg
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