A show of hands before I start....

Goodness no, no where near what it would take to pay back the mold cost and sell them at a reasonable price. This is the problem when dealing with an inexpensive, low volume part such as this. I know everyone will need them but when given a choice of $40 VS $225 for a full set of what I consider is required....? Had this part been $200 each rather than the sub $10 each, the answer would have been easy.

Had I not asked the question I would have thought the popular opinion would have gone the other way using my worst case pricing as a model against Ferrari's new low cost. To re coop the molding costs while selling at a reasonable markup would take a lot of kits being sold. I am able to make these in very low volume without the investment related to molds but that would only take care of my and a few other shops needs/wants and would fall far short of supplying these to the public on a reasonable time table.

What this did answer, using this group as an average sampling of opinion, is that given a choice most will opt for quality over price in this price range. When dealing with all of these low volume projects like I am now, this seemingly easy decision of a couple hundred dollars difference in price can make or break an entire idea. The answer is simple when I look at making a few parts for myself and a couple of other shops, whole different ball game when looking at marketing them in volume. I never set out to make any of these parts available to the public, they were intended for Niki and myself to use in the shop only. Take the coolant hose as an example. The only ones that had to be happy with it were Niki and myself as we made it technically as good as possible (cost no object) and made it look such that most would never even notice it when on the car. Completely opposite of how one would make a product designed for retail sales.... It turned out so good we looked at each other and asked "I wonder if anyone else would want this kind of thing...". Making it available to the folks outside the shop we have to label it so no one uses coolant hose for fuel hose.... Just designing a label that kept in the spirit of the original design was difficult as I insisted on the smallest dark gray lettering that could be made so it wouldn't stand out and could be hidden.... Taking ideas from minute production level, personal use to small production (compared to if we were making things for a Ford) publicly available use is a big step for a small operation such as ours.

It appears that the idea of offering a long lasting quality option on these small projects is a thought that has found its time even if it is not price competitive. I am able to make products that will outlast the OEM parts 4 or 5/1 and in the case of the coolant hose at half the price of OEM parts even when correcting design problems made in the original parts. In the case of the fuel components the cost is 4 to 5 times that of the OEM parts when hand built but that comes down by half if I invest in molds to make these parts. There is not enough profit built in to pay for advertising this type of product so one would have to rely on word of mouth to sell them but when safety is at stake, word travels quickly.

 

Fuel system failures in the last few years have led to me doing a great deal of research in this area. Years back I started to see the in-tank fuel system rubber components disolving and spreading the sludge throughout the entire injection system. At the time it seemed to be an isolated problem and was restricted to just that of submerged rubber components and only presented a risk to the FI system.

This last year I converted a Vintage Maserati from Webers back to the Lucas FI system while replacing all of the hoses with new and completely cleaning all of the hard lines and fuel tank. Five gallons of fuel went in the tank ten minutes after getting it from the gas station and 15 mins after pressurizing the fuel system for the first time I noticed all of the hoses go completely limp and spongy. Long story short, this led to a year of research learning about and understanding the failure mode I was seeing with the fuel hoses. Further research showed this was not an isolated problem in our area but a worldwide problem of rubber components failing when subjected to todays fuel's. The fuel's have changed and the rubber components of the non-current production cars were unable to deal with the new blends.

I already had a great relationship with a major hose manufacturer as I was deep into designing a new silicone coolant hose for our own use at the time and I approached their engineering staff to help me understand these failures. As it turned out I was ahead of a number of BIG manufacturers in asking these questions. I sent a good number of failed hoses to the engineers and they understood the failures and explained how we could address it. It was now obvious what I had been seeing regarding the in-tank component failures from years earlier and this made me step back and look at all of the fuel system rubber parts.

Some 6-7 years ago I had first come across the fuel neck sleeves on a 348 Spider literally melted to the fuel tank and splashing gas on the left header while going around a corner. It appeared at the time this too was an isolated failure possibly caused by someone playing with exotic fuels and I forgot about it until a year later when the same car had all of the in-tank rubber components melt. As it turns out it was taking a little longer for the rubber sleeves under the plastic fill and vent pipes to fail than the submerged components but in time they too were suffering the same fate.

I was already underway building very low production level molds for the intank rubber parts to be manufactured for me in a compound the engineers came up with. Marine fuel hose is a known good solution for the fuel hose problem and the engineers I was working with figured out a way to use the liner compound from this hose, change it slightly and mold it in complex shapes I required for the intank components. The labor involved in changing out all of the intank components to this new material made the cost of the parts justifyable even when more expensive than the OEM pieces. When looking at the fuel neck sleeves the labor is not so much a factor as they are fairly easy to replace and the higher cost of making these in a long lasting material is what is in question. I had already stopped the fabrication of the low production level mold for the intank components and changed that to a higher quality mold able to make more parts that looked nice. One has to remember that when making these parts for myself, good looking cosmetically is of zero concern, functional long life was all I was after as no one would ever see a part inside a fuel tank if there were no failures.

In a nutshell, the rubber sleeves on the fill and vent tubes are failing now on a regular basis. As they are there to contain all of the fuel and vapors and keep them away from the heat of the engine bay they represent a safety issue in my mind.

Dave

 

Looks like I will be making molds for these. With proper molds made the cost will drop to half that number I suspect. My insurance guy will go water tight when I tell him we are going to make fuel system parts. That will be the final contributor to the end cost of doing these. I already have the fuel tank hose in production for the earlier cars, guess its time to bombshell him with all of this.

Dave

 

Sure seems I was wrong predicting the popular opinion. One has to step back and look at the wonderful marketing opportunities I was left with. I build the part and then on the lead line of the advertisement is says "...and it only costs 4 times what Ferrari charges..." I am glad to see the trend turning now, it doesnt cost that much more to do it correctly but one has to know what correct is first. Everyone here knows that as soon as I spend all of the money making the molds and following through on all of the production issues, Ferrari WILL change the material they are using and in the volumes they are capible of......

My company insurance rep was not very pleased (exact quote would require symbols and not letters) with my thoughts to follow through with fuel hose and seals for this marque. He warmed a little when I explained the technology behind it and explained the research. He warmed a great deal when I told him I had already announced the projects on here and if he nixed it I would post his name and contact info here. He actually thought it might be a good idea after I told him if he charged me stupid money for insurance to cover this I would post his home contact data here for the car owners to give him feedback. The power of the Net can work both ways...! Quotes to follow today or tomorrow and that will answer the question if red tape sinks another idea or if I can follow through on this. It either has to be done 100% right or not done at all, its already being done incorrectly.

Thanks for taking the time and sharing thoughts. The next step is the difficult one. I could still fill every order here by doing this in a low limited production method....the next question is would the word get out and the market for this grow or would this be a one time fling and then dry up? Hard to predict that one. I have to think that making the molds and at least be ready for future orders would be the wisest method to follow through. I sure wouldnt want to have the shelves full of these parts waiting for that to happen these days.

 

Headers.....what a PITA. I wont build them to my design BUT...... talks are underway and look fairly promising. There are some very tallented folks involved in headers these days.

Sadly I throw that gummy crap away as soon as we take it out...stinks the shop up. Bruce has pulled his car apart, maybe can take photo's. I know Ernie just went through the fuel pump mount portion of the job and had a good thread running with photo's. The failure mode of the fill neck sleeves is exactly the same as the in-tank components. When the sleeves melt they seem to bond to the plastic in some manner making it very difficult to remove with causing damage to the plastic fill tube. The key here is to change them out before they melt so a fight with the removal is bypassed.

I am going to forward this thread to my insurance agent....that ought to keep him honest and looking at this in a positive light.

Dave

 

We had some out of town guests Friday and it was a wild day to say the least. End result of a dinner meeting and a few glasses of wine will prove in short order to be a BIG change for our business in an extremely positive way. We have an old friend joining Kris, Niki and myself....