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Adding Modern ABS to a non-ABS car...

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Auraraptor, Feb 21, 2004.

  1. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,559
    MO
    What does it entain? Just wondering really. I know it would be easier to just go and buy an ABS 328.

    The point is, what does it entain? If I bought the complete braking system off of a say 355 or 360, would I be able to adapt it to work on my car, with the ABS. Cost is NOT the point here, its more of a 'is it possible at all' thing.
     
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  3. Steve King

    Steve King F1 Rookie

    Feb 15, 2001
    4,366
    NY
    Just time and $'s can make this happen. Need to tear out all of the present breaking system and replace with the 1st year car that uses the system. May be tricky with the microprocessor but I'm sure it could be done. I would suspect you would need to replace the hubs (with the sensors) as well as the MC and brake servo unit. I would suspect you can do this for $4-$8k but if someone does this for you I don't think they will garranty the job even if an F shop does it. The issue is liability. Also I have not checked but try the web to see if there is an aftermarket setup out there. I would think that the hot rodders would be getting into this .
     
  4. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,559
    MO
    Hmm, interesting. I was hoping for around 6-8k for parts and install the complete braking system out of a wrecked 355 or 360 into my car. (replacing any damaged components with new ones, using SS lines all the way through, etc) Thoughts? I was thinking that an OB1 355 would be easier then later cars..
     
  5. cinquevalvole

    cinquevalvole Formula 3

    Feb 6, 2004
    1,151
    Germany, Bayern
    Hi Auraraptor,

    for the 328 ABS it need's some space: The so called ABS rims. (already on your profile car)
    Late 328 models have also a wider track gauge (necessary?)
    Guess for 355 or 360 discs + breakes you need even much more space.
    IME the sh*** feeling when emergency braking the 328 GTS is a issue of blocking front wheels.
    The behavior of a light front that is diving deeply needs a lot of exercising.
    A 328 ABS with some sport-pads would be sufficient to improve the performance. But the diving is still there.
    Maybe this is an advantage to get some ballast on the front axis.

    try to keep it as original as possible

    cinquevalvole
     
  6. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,559
    MO
    I agree with this within reason. I already am upgrading the wheels to 18s, and feel the braking system should get an overall with t\he additon of ABS. I will keep all the orginal parts though, in case (even though it might cost me a bit to reinstall) I would like to go back at any moment to stock.
     
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  8. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,559
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    Ok here is what I have so far:

    Note that I have 18in wheels coming in AND a 1988.5 328GTS (the abs ready but abs lacking cars)

    A Definate source for the 1989 328 ABS master cyl. assembly with reservoir no. 70000537. I will still need the ABS computer and sensors (+wiring) if I want to retrofit the OEM 328 ABS that should have been in my ABS ready car in the first place.

    B Definate source for front and rear 355 disks calipers caliper holders, ABS sensors. (and possibly the ABS brake clyinder) (the brake computer though I am not sure if it is a seperate part or subunit of the main computer)

    C Source from 550 Front brakes:rotors, calipers. I can get the rear setup if they will work better/fit better then 355s, along with the wheel sensors)

    Ideally I would like to go with a 355 front rear setup at the wheels and a 355 ABS brake master cylinder with 355 ABS computer. If that is impossible, then perhaps a OEM 328 ABS system indeck with either 355 or 550 setups at the wheels.

    Thoughts and help? Much appreciated.
     
  9. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
    Little Rock
    Full Name:
    David Jones
    If it were me, and ABS was that important to me...
    I would sell the car you have and get one with ABS.

    IMHO the car you have, is the 328 model that the performance guys want.
    It has the updated suspension, but lacks the quasi ABS system that sucks for track days.

    IMHO, want better brakes on your 328,
    then the ABS system is not the way to go.
    Purchasing a big brake kit from someone like Brembo would be better money spent, and would stop your car better.
     
  10. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,559
    MO
    That is not quite an option as one of my requirements is that the brakes remained balanced. Brembo does make a rear kit for the 328, but you lose the parking brake. If you read through my last post, then you would know that I intend to swap both the fronts and rears with a latter model's (so i can keep the balance just right, and keep the hand brake function) Since I am doing that I might as well go one step further and get the ABS master clyinder and ABS computer and swap them in as well. My post cocerned that if I did get all these, would I be able to install a 355 braking sytem in my car? I would add a simple LED warning light somewhere in my interior for the abs warning, thats not too hard. The quesiton is if its possible, and if I am missing anything else that might be needed to do the swap.
     
  11. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
    Little Rock
    Full Name:
    David Jones
    "That is not quite an option as one of my requirements is that the brakes remained balanced"

    Then why not do what everyone else does in that situation....

    A Brake Proportioning Valve!
     
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  13. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,559
    MO
    Simple on that one: Loss of handbrake function.:p
     
  14. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
    12,887
    Cumming, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Franklin E. Parker
    Why would one do that ? I prefer non-abs brakes on a sports car anyway. At the track you can't threshold brake an abs car nearly as well as a non-abs car.
     
  15. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
    Little Rock
    Full Name:
    David Jones
    "Why would one do that ? I prefer non-abs brakes on a sports car anyway. At the track you can't threshold brake an abs car nearly as well as a non-abs car."

    Exactly... That is why the 328 that Omar has is a better track car than the ABS version.
     
  16. 308tr6

    308tr6 Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2003
    466
    SDakota
    Full Name:
    Rico
    IMHO ABS sucks. Why screw up your car?
     
  17. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,559
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    Ok, can someone better explain to me threshold braking? As far as I know, I brake the car in an emergency at 10/10 and try to pump them if I over do it and they start to lock up.

    It will be alot cheaper for me to simply upgrade to front and rear 355 brakes without ABS.
     
  18. 308tr6

    308tr6 Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2003
    466
    SDakota
    Full Name:
    Rico
    Well, I'm surely not the best qualified to answer this, but here's my take. First of all the coefficient of friction in sliding (brakes locked up) is worse than at that point where skidding just starts (the threshold before lockup occurs). So the trick is to apply just enough brake pressure (reach the threshold) before lockup occurs to get maximum braking resistance (and obviously still have steering control of the car). ABS systems come reasonably close to the threshold, but are generally not as good as the human touch by a relatively skilled driver. In my view ABS was developed for the ordinary driver who when confronted with an emergency situation just slams on the brake pedal and hasn't the presence of mind or ability to apply a firm brake pedal, but not lock em up. In this case they (ABS systems) are an appropriate technology. Also, in this instance you can still steer the car if the wheels are turning and not simply sliding in the direction of momentum. But in racing for example or sport driving you obviously know a corner is coming up and can probably slow the car more effectively using your touch more effectively than an ABS system can. For those of us who live in snowy climates, ABS systems (again IMHO) are downright dangerous, and I personally think they cause more crashes than they prevent. This whole topic eventually leads to that discussion of the "rightfulness" of servo assisted driving mechanisms versus, the good ole human brain and skill of a driver. Formula 1 wrestles with this concept continuously (for example launch control - the opposite of ABS in a sense) allows a driver to mash the pedal to the metal (or probably flip a switch in this case) and the car magically knows the amount of power it sends thru the gears and not induce wheelspin. Technology is cool, but it does take the driver skills out of the picture a bit. (Actually I think F1 removed launch control for this year). This whole traction control thing is quite common in newer cars and again in my view (like ABS) sucks unless you drive like grandma. Also, newer cars are contemplating servo assisted steering which changes gear ratios for steering dependent upon speed, such that at lower speeds you don't have to turn a bunch to get in the store parking lot, while at high speeds, little twitches in your hand won't send you back and forth across the yellow line. Again, technology is trying to overcome driver shortcomings. Good, bad, you decide, but I personally don't like the autopilot approach to driving a car, and in the case of ABS, you don't even have to be anywhere near a F1 pilot to beat the effect that the system is trying to accomplish (just slightly better than grandma). Anyway (sorry grandma) and I hope this helps.
     
  19. Tony Fuisz

    Tony Fuisz Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    162
    Bethesda, MD
    Full Name:
    Tony Fuisz
    I don't think you would lose the parking brake with a brake proportioning valve-it just lets you adjust the relative amount of braking force going to the rear vs the front. You can then set it so that they both lock together, or usually done the fronts look sl. earlier, so you can carefully watch the poll you are going to hit the whole time.
    ABS won't make you stop quicker on a nice surface on a dry track.
    Practice a few stops with the windows open so you can hear the wheels when they lock-there's a subtle change in pedal pressure you should be able to feel-once you know what it feels like your toes become the ABS.
    Completely different are the brake actuating stability systems out now (though not on any ferrari I think)-an amazing thing when you can feel an individual brake being applied to straighten out the car.
    Retrofitting ABS to a 328 sounds like an almost impossible challenge.
     
  20. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,559
    MO
    Interesting posts.

    Let me just say that first I have only driven manual cars for just under 2 years and ABS lacking cars in any real sense for just over a year. My ABS lacking cars are both my less common drivers (328GTS and my old BMW 633CSi). I have always used cars before this point have been over computer added type with evey imaginable and available driver aid. (yes you know, they get boring)

    For me, the lack of ABS is a fear thing. I have been cut off by all manner of vehicles...the worst being large trucks. This once occured while I was enjoying a pleasurable drive and I had to quickly stop the car of well, end up as a pancake. Very hard to do I found out. Not to mention, when the bumps and cracks in the road would rapidly trun the car in every which way.

    I tried to press the brakes to just before lockup, and everytime I would get a little to far, I would jump bk just a few degrees on the pedal (more less a pumping effect)

    Point is that I was scared out of my mind and from that point I decided that after I get a set of larger 18s, I would swap in the entire braking system from a latter, better braking Ferrari. 355's are just the cheapest and most readily available.

    Thats my story of how I scared the **** out of myself and here we are today. I dont mind the acutal concept and think of it as pretty cool to 'properly brake' (just like manuals) but in emergency situations where the car every so often just shackes and jolts as the road impretions show ... scary to me.
     
  21. Wasco

    Wasco Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    486
    Salem
    Full Name:
    Randy
    When ABS first was introduce I discussed them with a mechanic that worked on alot of police cars. He said he had to replace the enitire front suspension on most every car due to the extreme shuttering the ABS system creates by its very nature. I would want to know if they increased the strength of ABS car front ends before I slapped a set on my non-ABS car. I agree with others that the whole auto pilot syndrome is not the way I want my F-car. I have a brand new daily driver that has ABS, traction control and other nifty stuff. But when I drive the F-car I know it is all me.
     
  22. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,559
    MO
    Wasco your reply has convinced me, NO ABS for me!

    Now then what brake upgrades can I do. Brembo has a kit for our cars, but its rather, dare I say it, wimpy. It is designed for the OEM 16s.

    I have 18s on my car, and would much rather a larger better equalivant.
     
  23. JOHN328

    JOHN328 Karting

    Jan 2, 2003
    67
    SAN FRANCISCO BAY AR
    Full Name:
    JOHN STRIEGEL
    What did people do before ABS brakes became avaible on their cars/Ferrari's
     
  24. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    11,559
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    Good question, thats way before my time though. I can't even remember that long ago.:p
     
  25. Steve King

    Steve King F1 Rookie

    Feb 15, 2001
    4,366
    NY
    They would pump the brakes in the wet or snow just like ABS only slower. Or they would lockk up the wheels and flat spot the tires. ABS is nice but no big deal. They are realy simple in concept . The wheel sensors see when each wheel is locking up and would release that brake. Thats the simple defination but you need all of the necessary hardware and CPU to make this work.
     

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